The Present Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

I really don't see the issue with my post--I was just noting how silly the ad holocaust argument is to defend the actions of the modern state of Israel and how it really trivializes the actual victims of the Holocaust.

Galloway is somewhat of an idiot for a number of reasons, but what he's demanding is no different from how South Africa was treated.

[Lief 🗽]

Oh boo hoo. Quit your hand-wringing. Using the Holocaust as a justification for Israeli war crimes or ethnic cleansing in the West Bank is more offensive than anything Snowstalker has said. This constant lookout for opportunities to jump down on people, scream "anti-Semitism!!!" and shut down discussion is pathetic.

The "Palestinian Gandhi" thing is absolute nonsense. The Palestinians have peacefully protested, and when they do, they are ignored by international media or they are murdered or arrested by Israeli soldiers and then ignored by international media. The Israeli occupation is inherently violent. Colonizing another people's land is inherently violent. To turn the burden back on the oppressed people, telling them that they must peacefully resist while Israeli guns are aimed at them, when they cannot move around their own country freely, when any sort of resistance is met with gunfire from the IDF or from Israeli settlers, is disgusting.

[Oakvale]

Yeah, I may be missing something but while it was expressed a tad awkwardly (as is his wont) I don't see anything particularly offensive or inaccurate in that Snowstalker post.

[ingemann]

Yeah, I may be missing something but while it was expressed a tad awkwardly (as is his wont) I don't see anything particularly offensive or inaccurate in that Snowstalker post.

Yes in this thread it sometimes feel like Snowstalker write two thing, and I only see the reasonable version, while some other posters see a post, where he support the Holocaust.

[Bull Moose Base]

Oh boo hoo. Quit your hand-wringing. Using the Holocaust as a justification for Israeli war crimes or ethnic cleansing in the West Bank is more offensive than anything Snowstalker has said. This constant lookout for opportunities to jump down on people, scream "anti-Semitism!!!" and shut down discussion is pathetic.

Where did this happen? Looks to me like you're protesting others protesting something that isn't there when, ironically, that protest isn't even there.

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It's ridiculous to say Palestinians have tried peaceful protest and it didn't work. For one thing, stray protests in the context of a movement that's been predominantly violent since it began (even before the creation of Israel) is not the same as a nonviolent liberation movement. To say nonviolent protest didn't work because the protesters just got arrested reveals a staggering lack of understanding of nonviolent protest and its history. I can't speak for dead0man, but my point was a Palestinian liberation movement would be much more effective with violence removed from the equation. The historical trauma of the Holocaust is part of the reason why and I don't see why it should be out-of-bounds to say so. The other absurdity of someone dismissing Palestinian nonviolent resistance as having been tried and failing is that, not only is that false, but violent resistance has been tried incessantly and has been a bonafide catastrophe for Palestinians. Without it, Israel, if it existed at all, wouldn't be in control of the West Bank and Gaza. It's not that, in the absence of violence against Israel, there would no longer be fundamentalist Jews or rightwing Israelis who aspire to annex the West Bank, it's that their political power would dissipate considerably. Remember Netanyahu was most recently elected in the wake of another short war with Gaza. And of course, this is the flip side of the Israel rightwing government's continuing to expand settlements weakening the political power of moderate Palestinians in a cycle empowering rejectionists, a cycle you seem to approve of by condoning militants'  terror attacks against Israeli civilians- the consequence of which is to undermine the liberal forces on each side which represent the only hope for progress. All this is without even discussing the morality of attacks targeting civilians.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Bad faith arguments - in any political direction! - invoking the Holocaust, particularly when they use dubious (if increasingly common, unfortunately) narratives about what happened, are are best moronic and are usually actively mendacious. I thought it better to call it out than wait until someone from the moron wing of the other side of the 'debate' turns up and the thread goes slightly short of nuclear. Of course that will probably happen anyway.

[Lurker]

It's not a good sign that so many people on your side are so ignorant of the history.  Anyway....
cite the 1st

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2nd link

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Yes, it was condemned so fiercely by Israeli society that the man behind the terrorist attack later became the nation's Prime Minister. Which, incidentally, was also the fate of the man who ordered the murder of Folke Bernadotte. It's hard to think of a harsher punishment.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

In fairness (if that's the right word), members/supporters of the Irgun and the Lehi (particularly the latter) were often socially ostracised to an extent in the 50s and early 60s. Attitudes changed considerably in later decades, unfortunately.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Also in the news...

George Galloway declares Bradford ‘an Israel-free zone’

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Galloway is a repulsive human being and it's awful that he is actually an elected official. As shameful as the success of the BNP.

[traininthedistance]

Apparently blood libel– as in, the blood libel– is still a thing.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Ceasefire due to run out soon, and noises wrt its renewal don't sound exactly wonderful.

[dead0man]

Ceasefire due to run out soon, and noises wrt its renewal don't sound exactly wonderful.

Hamas ended it a few hours early.

[Indy Texas]

India wouldn't have had a Gandhi if neighboring countries were funding and abetting more radical alternatives out of a desire to weaken the British for their own personal reasons.

It's worth pointing out that Israel was giving money to Hamas under the table as recently as the early '90s in an effort to weaken the PLO - and they were no less aware back then that Hamas called for the elimination of Israel in their charter.

Meanwhile, most of the PLO's member parties were basically co-opted by the West's revolutionary left. You had a bunch of gated community communists from Germany, France and Japan imposing themselves on Palestinian guerrillas as a way to piss off their parents and they ended up doing far more harm than good to the Palestinian independence movement. The Soviets also tacitly encouraged the PFLP and DFLP's antics because all those airplane hijackings and botched bombing attempts were seen as a big poke in the eye to the capitalists and NATO.

[dead0man]

le sigh

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

le sigh

This of course justifies the >1,000 civilian casualties from Israeli bombing, right?

[MaxQue]

le sigh

Are you really surprised?

[dead0man]

le sigh

Are you really surprised?

Me?  God no.  I've known how the child murdering bastards operate for as long as I've been aware of the topic.  It's the UN/UNRWA, Human Rights Watch, etc that can't seem to understand (despite some of them being RIGHT FUNKING THERE).

[MalaspinaGold]

le sigh

I don't think anyone actually denied it...

IndyTX, you're probably more familiar with the Palestinian political situation than I am; would it be an accurate assessment to say that cutdown in aid to Gaza, because it makes Hamas the only group providing some sort of social welfare, strengthens Hamas's popularity? I really don't know.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Expected news today, but still as depressing as fyck.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Not really in the mood for what I'm guessing is a tres graphic video at the moment; what does it show?

[dead0man]

Not really in the mood for what I'm guessing is a tres graphic video at the moment; what does it show?

Nothing graphic.  Some French news network was broadcasting from their hotel next to the UN building when some rockets were launched dozens of feet away from him, scaring the bejeezus out of him.  Then going back the next day to look at it, showing kids playing with the barrels, panning the camera a bit to show the UN flag 100 yards away.  There was a very similar one from an Indian news network a few days ago.  Really, the most shocking thing is that Hamas let the video get out.

[Silent Hunter]

Hamas are a really incompetent terrorist group at times.

FWIW, there's a great article on the BBC site about how the casualty figures should be taken with some degree of caution:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28688179

[Simfan34]

Interesting how the article dances around what that might mean. Good journalism.

[Angel of Death]

"only" half

Anyone spot the irony here?

[dead0man]

Hamas are a really incompetent terrorist group at times.

FWIW, there's a great article on the BBC site about how the casualty figures should be taken with some degree of caution:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28688179

Of course.  I didn't think anybody did take those numbers seriously apart from your bigots like snow and those only half paying attention like Texasindy and swl.

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The exact thing happened after Lebanon too.