The Present Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Criminal thugs murder unarmed civilian carrying a white flag.

I'd love to know how I'm a bigot for supporting a war of national liberation instead of being a shill for a colonial settler-state. 25 years ago you'd be one of those idiots calling Mandela a terrorist.

[MalaspinaGold]

I'm pretty sure if Goldfield were to link a comparable article from Israel Hayom or some comparable entity you would be the first to be scream bloody bias. Just throwing that out there.

Aside from that, of course dead0man is for the most part wrong but being anti-Netanyahu does not require one to be a Hamas shill.

[dead0man]

Aside from that, of course dead0man is for the most part wrong

I don't think I've stated facts that were incorrect.  I would hope not anyway.  I'd be interested to know if I have.

(unless you just think my conclusions are wrong....)

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

I'm pretty sure if Goldfield were to link a comparable article from Israel Hayom or some comparable entity you would be the first to be scream bloody bias. Just throwing that out there.

EI is really no more biased than the BBC or CNN or NBC.

For the record I do not approve of many of Hamas's military tactics (especially the criminal use of child soldiers) and do not support them within a governing context in Gaza or in a hypothetical liberated Palestine. However, I support Hamas within the context of the national liberation struggle.

[Silent Hunter]

25 years ago you'd be one of those idiots calling Mandela a terrorist.

By 1989, Umkhonto we Sizwe had committed a number of acts that could be legitimately described as terrorism, FWIW.

[Sbane]

25 years ago you'd be one of those idiots calling Mandela a terrorist.

By 1989, Umkhonto we Sizwe had committed a number of acts that could be legitimately described as terrorism, FWIW.

Isn't that justified though?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Anyway, violence continues but in a notably more low-key fashion than pre-ceasefire.

[dead0man]

There has been an "undeclared" ceasefire agreed upon while talks continue.

Hamas has agreed to let the idea of a seaport go in the truce talks if they can get the PA to monitor the border with Egypt.  Not sure why they think that would be any better, as neither PA nor Egypt desires a re-armed Hamas and pals.  Might be easier to bribe a PA border guard than it would one that was a member of the IDF or the Egyptian Army I guess.

Also, if their (Hamas) demands are not met by Sunday they are going to attack Tel Aviv.  Whatever that means.

[Silent Hunter]

Also, if their (Hamas) demands are not met by Sunday they are going to attack Tel Aviv.  Whatever that means.

Chuck rockets at it.

[dead0man]

The IDF's favorite song right now

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They like it because of sh**tty translation to Hebrew is comical.  Because it's oddly catchy, yet very hardcore in the lyrics.  It reminds them what kind of monsters they are fighting.  As a bonus, it probably puts a sand in Hamas's vagina as they are the ones that released this pop song of hate.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

The IDF's favorite song right now

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They like it because of sh**tty translation to Hebrew is comical.  Because it's oddly catchy, yet very hardcore in the lyrics.  It reminds them what kind of monsters they are fighting.  As a bonus, it probably puts a sand in Hamas's vagina as they are the ones that released this pop song of hate.

How much are they paying you?

[dead0man]

There has been an "undeclared" ceasefire agreed upon while talks continue.

Hamas has agreed to let the idea of a seaport go in the truce talks if they can get the PA to monitor the border with Egypt.  Not sure why they think that would be any better, as neither PA nor Egypt desires a re-armed Hamas and pals.  Might be easier to bribe a PA border guard than it would one that was a member of the IDF or the Egyptian Army I guess.

More info on the deal....
1.fishing rights extended for Gaza
2.letting Palestinians pass between Gaza and the West Bank via the Erez crossing
3.PA to monitor the Philidelphi Route and the Rafah border crossing
4.Israel to monitor "stuff" coming in via the Kerem Shalom border crossing
5.the PA taking Qatar's money and giving it directly to the long unpaid state employees in Gaza (or closely monitoring as Hamas hands it out)
6.IDF gets to patrol the "no man's land" to make sure there are no more tunnels

If Hamas isn't allowed to rearm, we might actually stop seeing a repeat of the same sh**t every 18 months.  Lets all pray to the gods of our choosing that they are not allowed to rearm.

edit

7. release of the prisoners (re)caught in the first days of the conflict (not sure if all, most, many or some)

edit the second

8.Israel's Minister of Justice, Tzipi Livni, is trying to get funds from the US, EU and UN to rebuild Gaza if assurances can be made that they won't be used to rearm

[Famous Mortimer]

The sea port idea actually came from a Likud MK (he wanted Israeli control, not UN control though). I don't think it's a plot to re-arm, at least not any more so than any of the other proposals to end the blockade.

[dead0man]

Despite what the bigots and the "others" say, Israel just wants peace.  If Hamas isn't allowed to rearm, there will be peace and in a few years if people like Salam Fayyad are allowed to take a bigger role, there will even be functioning government(s), making life better for everybody.  At least until ISIS gets there.

[MalaspinaGold]

I'm pretty sure if Goldfield were to link a comparable article from Israel Hayom or some comparable entity you would be the first to be scream bloody bias. Just throwing that out there.

EI is really no more biased than the BBC or CNN or NBC.

For the record I do not approve of many of Hamas's military tactics (especially the criminal use of child soldiers) and do not support them within a governing context in Gaza or in a hypothetical liberated Palestine. However, I support Hamas within the context of the national liberation struggle.

Sure, and FOX is no more biased as BBC/CNN/NBC (not to say the American networks have no pro-Israel bias, just that they are being as incompetent as usual.) It's actually really funny, because a friend from my synagogue was telling me I need to watch Hannity to really understand what's going on in Gaza, as the major networks were all pro-Palestinian. It's really frustrating at times.

And okay, here's the thing: if Israel agreed to some secular state (let's call it Canaan to avoid offending anybody), do you really think they are going to step aside and allow that to happen? Hamas IS a member party of the Muslim Brotherhood after all. And if they emerge the dominant party in Canaan, they will have the power to become an Islamic state. So I just want you to be REALLY sure you understand that if Hamas wins the ground game, they will also win the political game. This is why Hamas must lose, as well as Likud-Beiteinu and Habayit Hayehudi on the Israeli side. And the thing is, Hamas will keep winning  Palestinian elections, and Likud, and in the future Habayit Hayehudi will win Israeli elections, if both sides continue giving the other side reason to want to eliminate them. Ironically, the best path to a one-state solution might well be a two-state solution, where the two sides stay out of each other's business long enough to cool down enough for real talks at reunification. Otherwise, this is basically going to turn into another Syria, Iraq, Zimbabwe.

dead0man, yes, I feel you know most of the facts about the grand mess, but yes, you draw the long conclusions. To say that Israel just wants peace is silly, when, for one thing, Netanyahu sabotaged talks in order to give the go ahead to more settlements. And yes, there are important members of the current coalition, most importantly Naftali Bennett, who essentially want for the Palestinians to leave the West Bank and Gaza Strip. Unfortunately, this gives Hamas a very easy reason to continue to arm.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Hamas isn't actually that popular in Gaza due to their domestic incompetence, and without Israeli aggression as a scapegoat, they're likely to lose support among Palestinians (though it's unlikely that that support will go to a corrupt and collaborationist group like Fatah). Similarly, the reason Israel isn't just storming in and deposing Hamas is because of how great of a scapegoat it is for Israel's brutality in the Gaza Strip. It's also worth mentioning how broad "Islamism" is--the Muslim Brotherhood is conservative and authoritarian but not extremist like the (pretty much dead) Al-Qaeda and certainly nothing like ISIS.

[ingemann]

There has been an "undeclared" ceasefire agreed upon while talks continue.

Hamas has agreed to let the idea of a seaport go in the truce talks if they can get the PA to monitor the border with Egypt.  Not sure why they think that would be any better, as neither PA nor Egypt desires a re-armed Hamas and pals.  Might be easier to bribe a PA border guard than it would one that was a member of the IDF or the Egyptian Army I guess.

Also, if their (Hamas) demands are not met by Sunday they are going to attack Tel Aviv.  Whatever that means.

Are you so ideological blinded, that you don't get that the major reason that Hamas want the blockade to end, is to be able to develop Gaza, right now the import of cement are limited by Israel at a point, where they need not only to rebuild after the Israel bombing and bombardment of them, but they also need to deal with growing population. Beside that Gaza suffer from chronic lack of energy, which mean that they suffer from daily power outs, and an end to the blockade would also mean that Gazans could work abroad, which would bring much needed capital into Gaza. also at last and not least it would allow Gaza to develop Gaza commercial.

But of course the Israeli government don't want that for reason unknown to the rest of humanity, but if I was into conspiracies, I would say that they don't want it, because in that case they would risk peace, which would make the Israeli people vote for other issues, which could mean an end to their strong position they have had the last 20 years.

[MalaspinaGold]

Hamas isn't actually that popular in Gaza due to their domestic incompetence, and without Israeli aggression as a scapegoat, they're likely to lose support among Palestinians (though it's unlikely that that support will go to a corrupt and collaborationist group like Fatah). Similarly, the reason Israel isn't just storming in and deposing Hamas is because of how great of a scapegoat it is for Israel's brutality in the Gaza Strip. It's also worth mentioning how broad "Islamism" is--the Muslim Brotherhood is conservative and authoritarian but not extremist like the (pretty much dead) Al-Qaeda and certainly nothing like ISIS.

To the contrary, the reason that Hamas wins elections in Gaza I believe is because they are the only group with what even comes close to a social welfare service, something Fatah never even bothered to try to do. It's interesting to note that only 15-20% of Hamas's budget goes to military activities, while most of the rest goes to things like soup kitchens, schools, and healthcare. If another group, say Fatah or maybe even Israel were to establish a similar welfare system, and Israel would stop being so trigger-happy, Hamas's would probably never win another election anywhere.

Again, keep in mind, that whatever you think of the Muslim Brotherhood, it's official policy is to set up Islamic states, NOT secular ones. Even the moderate Ennahda in Tunisia set up an Islamic state, albeit one set up similar to Israel. I never said Hamas was anywhere near as nutty as al-Qaeda or ISIS, but that doesn't change matters.

And you are right, Hamas and the Israeli right need each other to survive. Which is why supporting Hamas in the hope of National Liberation or whatnot is silly, because Hamas itself strengthens the Israel security state.

[dead0man]

There has been an "undeclared" ceasefire agreed upon while talks continue.

Hamas has agreed to let the idea of a seaport go in the truce talks if they can get the PA to monitor the border with Egypt.  Not sure why they think that would be any better, as neither PA nor Egypt desires a re-armed Hamas and pals.  Might be easier to bribe a PA border guard than it would one that was a member of the IDF or the Egyptian Army I guess.

Also, if their (Hamas) demands are not met by Sunday they are going to attack Tel Aviv.  Whatever that means.

Are you so ideological blinded, that you don't get that the major reason that Hamas want the blockade to end, is to be able to develop Gaza, right now the import of cement are limited by Israel at a point, where they need not only to rebuild after the Israel bombing and bombardment of them, but they also need to deal with growing population. Beside that Gaza suffer from chronic lack of energy, which mean that they suffer from daily power outs, and an end to the blockade would also mean that Gazans could work abroad, which would bring much needed capital into Gaza. also at last and not least it would allow Gaza to develop Gaza commercial.

If only that were true.  Hamas has spent many MILLIONS of dollars, using child slave labor, to build tunnels to murder civilians.  If they wanted to improve Gaza they could use that money to make things better instead of trying to murder.  The concrete they do get in doesn't go into fixing sh**t, no it, like their children, go into the tunnels.  I can't understand how ideologically blind a person must be to ignore the evidence.

If Gaza grows up and stops the violence and Israel maintains the blockade, I'll be next to you at the rallies against them.

[MalaspinaGold]

There has been an "undeclared" ceasefire agreed upon while talks continue.

Hamas has agreed to let the idea of a seaport go in the truce talks if they can get the PA to monitor the border with Egypt.  Not sure why they think that would be any better, as neither PA nor Egypt desires a re-armed Hamas and pals.  Might be easier to bribe a PA border guard than it would one that was a member of the IDF or the Egyptian Army I guess.

Also, if their (Hamas) demands are not met by Sunday they are going to attack Tel Aviv.  Whatever that means.

Are you so ideological blinded, that you don't get that the major reason that Hamas want the blockade to end, is to be able to develop Gaza, right now the import of cement are limited by Israel at a point, where they need not only to rebuild after the Israel bombing and bombardment of them, but they also need to deal with growing population. Beside that Gaza suffer from chronic lack of energy, which mean that they suffer from daily power outs, and an end to the blockade would also mean that Gazans could work abroad, which would bring much needed capital into Gaza. also at last and not least it would allow Gaza to develop Gaza commercial.

If only that were true.  Hamas has spent many MILLIONS of dollars, using child slave labor, to build tunnels to murder civilians.  If they wanted to improve Gaza they could use that money to make things better instead of trying to murder.  The concrete they do get in doesn't go into fixing sh**t, no it, like their children, go into the tunnels.  I can't understand how ideologically blind a person must be to ignore the evidence.

If Gaza grows up and stops the violence and Israel maintains the blockade, I'll be next to you at the rallies against them.

THAT is false. Like I said, only 15-20% of Hamas's budget goes to military operations.

http://www.newstatesman.com/books/2007/05/hamas-palestinian-israel

[ingemann]

There has been an "undeclared" ceasefire agreed upon while talks continue.

Hamas has agreed to let the idea of a seaport go in the truce talks if they can get the PA to monitor the border with Egypt.  Not sure why they think that would be any better, as neither PA nor Egypt desires a re-armed Hamas and pals.  Might be easier to bribe a PA border guard than it would one that was a member of the IDF or the Egyptian Army I guess.

Also, if their (Hamas) demands are not met by Sunday they are going to attack Tel Aviv.  Whatever that means.

Are you so ideological blinded, that you don't get that the major reason that Hamas want the blockade to end, is to be able to develop Gaza, right now the import of cement are limited by Israel at a point, where they need not only to rebuild after the Israel bombing and bombardment of them, but they also need to deal with growing population. Beside that Gaza suffer from chronic lack of energy, which mean that they suffer from daily power outs, and an end to the blockade would also mean that Gazans could work abroad, which would bring much needed capital into Gaza. also at last and not least it would allow Gaza to develop Gaza commercial.

If only that were true.  Hamas has spent many MILLIONS of dollars, using child slave labor, to build tunnels to murder civilians.  If they wanted to improve Gaza they could use that money to make things better instead of trying to murder.  The concrete they do get in doesn't go into fixing sh**t, no it, like their children, go into the tunnels.  I can't understand how ideologically blind a person must be to ignore the evidence.

If Gaza grows up and stops the violence and Israel maintains the blockade, I'll be next to you at the rallies against them.

No you won't, you will make a new goal they need to reach and a new one after that.

[Bull Moose Base]

Why would Israel keep the blockade in effect if they were no longer threatened from Gaza? If Israel were interested in keeping Gaza it wouldn't have dismantled settlements there.

We also don't know how popular Hamas is in Gaza. A recent poll showed over 90% of Gazans wanted to continue the ceasefire that Hamas just broke.

[Hnv1]

There has been an "undeclared" ceasefire agreed upon while talks continue.

Hamas has agreed to let the idea of a seaport go in the truce talks if they can get the PA to monitor the border with Egypt.  Not sure why they think that would be any better, as neither PA nor Egypt desires a re-armed Hamas and pals.  Might be easier to bribe a PA border guard than it would one that was a member of the IDF or the Egyptian Army I guess.

Also, if their (Hamas) demands are not met by Sunday they are going to attack Tel Aviv.  Whatever that means.

Are you so ideological blinded, that you don't get that the major reason that Hamas want the blockade to end, is to be able to develop Gaza, right now the import of cement are limited by Israel at a point, where they need not only to rebuild after the Israel bombing and bombardment of them, but they also need to deal with growing population. Beside that Gaza suffer from chronic lack of energy, which mean that they suffer from daily power outs, and an end to the blockade would also mean that Gazans could work abroad, which would bring much needed capital into Gaza. also at last and not least it would allow Gaza to develop Gaza commercial.

If only that were true.  Hamas has spent many MILLIONS of dollars, using child slave labor, to build tunnels to murder civilians.  If they wanted to improve Gaza they could use that money to make things better instead of trying to murder.  The concrete they do get in doesn't go into fixing sh**t, no it, like their children, go into the tunnels.  I can't understand how ideologically blind a person must be to ignore the evidence.

If Gaza grows up and stops the violence and Israel maintains the blockade, I'll be next to you at the rallies against them.

So far no evidence that any of the tunnels where aimed at civilian villages but rather for army outposts.

[Silent Hunter]

THAT is false. Like I said, only 15-20% of Hamas's budget goes to military operations.

http://www.newstatesman.com/books/2007/05/hamas-palestinian-israel

1. That's a 7 year old article.
2. 15-20% is still an awful lot to spend on the military.

Israel are considering a full invasion and toppling of Hamas... in which there is going to even more death. I despair of this world at times.

[dead0man]

If only that were true.  Hamas has spent many MILLIONS of dollars, using child slave labor, to build tunnels to murder civilians.  If they wanted to improve Gaza they could use that money to make things better instead of trying to murder.  The concrete they do get in doesn't go into fixing sh**t, no it, like their children, go into the tunnels.  I can't understand how ideologically blind a person must be to ignore the evidence.

THAT is false. Like I said, only 15-20% of Hamas's budget goes to military operations.

http://www.newstatesman.com/books/2007/05/hamas-palestinian-israel

Well, no, what I said is not false.  I made no reference to percentages.  Hamas has spent $30mil and used 600,000 tons of concrete on the tunnels.  From a post I made 2 weeks ago.link-Institute for Palestine Studies

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Oddly (or not) it seems that place has removed that rather long and well researched article.  You can still see it referenced all over the internet, but the Institute for Palestine Studies has killed the link.

As for the budget, they haven't paid their own employees for years.  They haven't paid the Israeli electric companies for...ever.  Gaza was crumbling long before the current mess....but they've built lots tunnels!

So far no evidence that any of the tunnels where aimed at civilian villages but rather for army outposts.

Conceded.  Some of them are "aimed" towards small villages but all uses of tunnels during the conflict have been aimed at the IDF.