The Present Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread
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Author Topic: The Present Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread  (Read 66338 times)
dead0man
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« Reply #475 on: August 24, 2014, 03:50:54 PM »

Do you know how many more Gazans would be alive if Hamas had not broken the first ceasefire?
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Snowstalker Mk. II
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« Reply #476 on: August 24, 2014, 04:21:27 PM »

Do you know how many more Gazans would be alive if Hamas had not broken the first ceasefire?

I don't think you understand how a war of national liberation works. Should the Americans, Irish, Vietnamese, Angolans, Algerians, and Mozambicans have just given up?
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Vosem
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« Reply #477 on: August 24, 2014, 06:50:13 PM »

Do you know how many more Gazans would be alive if Hamas had not broken the first ceasefire?

I don't think you understand how a war of national liberation works.

I don't think you do, either. Guerillas, by definition, don't govern cities. States do that.

Should the Americans, Irish, Vietnamese, Angolans, Algerians, and Mozambicans have just given up?

I could reply to these individually, but it wouldn't do any good, so I'll just briefly mention how it's fantastic that Jonas Savimbi never gave up.
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ag
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« Reply #478 on: August 25, 2014, 12:45:35 AM »

Do you know how many more Gazans would be alive if Hamas had not broken the first ceasefire?

That Hamas is evil is not at issue here. Yes, they are a gang of fanatics, who don´t much care about the lives of their people. No dispute there.

However, the point is, they have been quite successfully neutralized years ago. The disparity in actual military and intelligence capacity is so humongous, that these day a pretty much necessary precondition for them to be able to hurt any Israeli is for Israel to send troops into Gaza (occasional rocket escaping the shield notwithstanding - pretty much anybody living in any big city in the world, probably, has a higher chance of being murdered while strolling in the park, than an Israeli has of being hit by that rocket). Israel is completely in control of the situation. Hence, it is pretty much irrelevant what Hamas is. Yes, they are SOB´s - and they do not, really, threaten anybody, except for their own people.

It is because of this degree of control over the situation that Israel is exercising at will that it is going to be blamed for whatever happens. Hamas "provoking" whatever is a joke - they are imprisoned within Gaza. Israeli leaders have the full luxury of deciding when and what to do. Hence, it is obvious to anyone paying even token attention that they happily use whatever "provocation" Hamas gives them for domestic political reasons. Frankly, I have long been under suspicion that they take care of provoking the impotent Hamas reaction wherever they need it - and send in the troops when it suites them that a few Jews get killed for a political effect. In fact, I am not going to be surprised if it turns out that Hamas is being consciously kept in power in Gaza to make this easier.

To sum up: yes, Hamas are a bunch of evil SOBs. We do not expect anything but ugliness from them. But they are irrelevant. The guy giving the orders to kill Jews is not any Hamasnik, but PM Netanyahu. And he does it whenever it suites him.
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dead0man
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« Reply #479 on: August 25, 2014, 03:42:38 AM »

Do you know how many more Gazans would be alive if Hamas had not broken the first ceasefire?

That Hamas is evil is not at issue here. Yes, they are a gang of fanatics, who don´t much care about the lives of their people. No dispute there.

However, the point is, they have been quite successfully neutralized years ago. The disparity in actual military and intelligence capacity is so humongous, that these day a pretty much necessary precondition for them to be able to hurt any Israeli is for Israel to send troops into Gaza (occasional rocket escaping the shield notwithstanding - pretty much anybody living in any big city in the world, probably, has a higher chance of being murdered while strolling in the park, than an Israeli has of being hit by that rocket). Israel is completely in control of the situation. Hence, it is pretty much irrelevant what Hamas is. Yes, they are SOB´s - and they do not, really, threaten anybody, except for their own people.
Except the only reason so few people die is because they all, every one of them Jew, Arab, whatever have to run for their lives and hide in bunkers.  It's freaking amazing so few have died.  You've got to be impressed with that.  It's also got to be hell on them.  Netanyahu doesn't launch those rockets.  Hamas and pals do.  From the parking lots of schools, from the backyards of families, across the street from hotels.  The leadership of Israel can not (and should not be expected to by outsiders) sit on their hands and do nothing.  It's quite stupid to expect them to.
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and that's some mighty funked up thinking by you.
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So you're saying that if Hamas hadn't broken the first ceasefire Israel would have still killed a thousand Palestinians?  That's is complete bull spit and if you honestly believe that I don't know why I'm wasting my time.
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swl
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« Reply #480 on: August 25, 2014, 04:09:30 AM »
« Edited: August 25, 2014, 04:17:16 AM by swl »

I mostly agree with ag (maybe not on the last part).

Except the only reason so few people die is because they all, every one of them Jew, Arab, whatever have to run for their lives and hide in bunkers.  It's freaking amazing so few have died.  You've got to be impressed with that.  
Not really, there are two more important reasons:
-The rockets are totally imprecise and they land wherever chance (or God Wink) brings them. Given the relatively low density of the area around the Gaza strip, it's unlikely for rockets to land on a house or someone. Many just land in empty areas.
-The Iron Dome works well.
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dead0man
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« Reply #481 on: August 25, 2014, 04:26:24 AM »

The rockets can and have reached Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, and other places not in the low density area around the strip.  Nearly everybody in Israel lives their lives waiting for the next alarm.

And yeah, the Iron Dome is great, but it's not perfect and there are ways to defeat it and you can be sure the bad guys* are working on ways to do just that.


*it is good to have some people on the other side acknowledge that Hamas are, in fact, horrible people....some over there like to freak out when I say "bad guy" as if Hamas isn't full of racist asshole murderers.
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swl
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« Reply #482 on: August 25, 2014, 04:38:09 AM »

Yes you are right, with time the technology on Hamas side is improving and they have more and more sophisticated rockets. But for example the shock created by the rocket landing near the airport in Tel-Aviv last month shows that it's not that common yet.
One more reason for Israel to seek peace. Tongue
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jfern
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« Reply #483 on: August 25, 2014, 04:38:20 AM »

The rockets can and have reached Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, and other places not in the low density area around the strip.  Nearly everybody in Israel lives their lives waiting for the next alarm.

And yeah, the Iron Dome is great, but it's not perfect and there are ways to defeat it and you can be sure the bad guys* are working on ways to do just that.


*it is good to have some people on the other side acknowledge that Hamas are, in fact, horrible people....some over there like to freak out when I say "bad guy" as if Hamas isn't full of racist asshole murderers.

Hamas and Likud are both bad guys.
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dead0man
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« Reply #484 on: August 25, 2014, 05:03:36 AM »

In the same way me and Micheal Jordan are both basketball players.
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Velasco
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« Reply #485 on: August 25, 2014, 05:49:00 AM »

*it is good to have some people on the other side acknowledge that Hamas are, in fact, horrible people....some over there like to freak out when I say "bad guy" as if Hamas isn't full of racist asshole murderers.

It'd be fantastic if some people on the 'another side' was admitting that the guy who orders indiscriminate retaliatory attacks which cause thousands of civil casualties is very very bad. I know that's asking too much, 0 straw man.
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Silent Hunter
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« Reply #486 on: August 25, 2014, 05:49:51 AM »

I mostly agree with ag (maybe not on the last part).

Except the only reason so few people die is because they all, every one of them Jew, Arab, whatever have to run for their lives and hide in bunkers.  It's freaking amazing so few have died.  You've got to be impressed with that. 
Not really, there are two more important reasons:
-The rockets are totally imprecise and they land wherever chance (or God Wink) brings them. Given the relatively low density of the area around the Gaza strip, it's unlikely for rockets to land on a house or someone. Many just land in empty areas.

None of that changes the intent behind the rocket attacks.
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dead0man
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« Reply #487 on: August 25, 2014, 06:25:25 AM »

*it is good to have some people on the other side acknowledge that Hamas are, in fact, horrible people....some over there like to freak out when I say "bad guy" as if Hamas isn't full of racist asshole murderers.

It'd be fantastic if some people on the 'another side' was admitting that the guy who orders indiscriminate retaliatory attacks which cause thousands of civil casualties is very very bad. I know that's asking too much, 0 straw man.
and people that pay so little attention that they think the retaliatory strikes are indiscriminate aren't really worth listening to, <insert lame insult here>.
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ag
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« Reply #488 on: August 25, 2014, 08:02:15 AM »
« Edited: August 25, 2014, 08:05:25 AM by ag »

In the same way me and Micheal Jordan are both basketball players.

True: Likud succeeds where Hamas fails.

Yes, of course, Likudniks appear somewhat civilized and sane, whereas Hamasniks are a collection of medeival fanatics. But it is the matter of strength. And because of that the former organization is much more dangerous for all involved than the latter.
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« Reply #489 on: August 25, 2014, 08:41:16 AM »

Let's not pretend that Hamas wasn't racking up mass Israeli casualties for a while via suicide bombings. Winning election turned out to be the worst thing possible for them, in a way - it turned them into a quantifiable entity that could be cornered in Gaza and trapped, rather than a loose wild card.

I think the point of the rocket fire, more than anything, is to draw Israeli fire. They can't rack up dead Jews anymore, but if they rack up enough dead Palestinians, maybe the neighboring nations will feel compelled to attack Israel. It's a strategy, albeit a monstrous one.
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ag
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« Reply #490 on: August 25, 2014, 08:43:26 AM »


So you're saying that if Hamas hadn't broken the first ceasefire Israel would have still killed a thousand Palestinians?  That's is complete bull spit and if you honestly believe that I don't know why I'm wasting my time.

Well, you ARE wasting your time. Because this is the point that is shared by most people outside the comfy right-wing Zionist circle. And, unless you seriously address it, you are not likely to convince anyone of anything. Unfortunately, I am afraid, if you try to seriously address, and, hence, research and think about it, you might be in for some serious lifetime disappointments.

In fact, this is one of the major reasons for why Israeli propaganda is so ineffective. Israelis like to think of themselves as a tiny precarious state under sustained attack from the world. The rest of the world sees Israel as an ultra-powerful military machine lashing out at all those around it at (at best) slightest provocation. Any attempt to argue that "we are just defending ourselves", which is not taking into account the perceived balance of forces is not going to be effective. Trust me.

This is not the only problem with Israeli propaganda. And most of these have to do with rather similar distinctions in perception. Unless Israelis (and their supporters) figure out how they are perceived from the outside, they will always be fighting propaganda battles with imaginary adversaries. Easy to win those battles. Pity, defeating imaginary opponent convinces nobody.
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dead0man
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« Reply #491 on: August 25, 2014, 09:27:27 AM »


So you're saying that if Hamas hadn't broken the first ceasefire Israel would have still killed a thousand Palestinians?  That's is complete bull spit and if you honestly believe that I don't know why I'm wasting my time.

Well, you ARE wasting your time.
Agreed.
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ag
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« Reply #492 on: August 25, 2014, 11:36:35 AM »


So you're saying that if Hamas hadn't broken the first ceasefire Israel would have still killed a thousand Palestinians?  That's is complete bull spit and if you honestly believe that I don't know why I'm wasting my time.

Well, you ARE wasting your time.
Agreed.

Hence, relax and stop bothering commenting on Israel affairs. None, except of those already convinced, will pay much attention to you anyway - unless, that is, you decide to approach it very differently.
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Chancellor Tanterterg
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« Reply #493 on: August 25, 2014, 12:45:21 PM »


So you're saying that if Hamas hadn't broken the first ceasefire Israel would have still killed a thousand Palestinians?  That's is complete bull spit and if you honestly believe that I don't know why I'm wasting my time.

Well, you ARE wasting your time.
Agreed.

Hence, relax and stop bothering commenting on Israel affairs. None, except of those already convinced, will pay much attention to you anyway - unless, that is, you decide to approach it very differently.

Good to know you don't pay much attention to anything that doesn't conform to your pre-existing views.  At least you admit it Tongue  Now the next step is to start acknowledging the existance facts that don't support your point of view.  I'm sure you'll get the hang of it someday Smiley  Who knows, you might even manage to develop a shred of objectivity!
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ag
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« Reply #494 on: August 25, 2014, 12:48:49 PM »


So you're saying that if Hamas hadn't broken the first ceasefire Israel would have still killed a thousand Palestinians?  That's is complete bull spit and if you honestly believe that I don't know why I'm wasting my time.

Well, you ARE wasting your time.
Agreed.

Hence, relax and stop bothering commenting on Israel affairs. None, except of those already convinced, will pay much attention to you anyway - unless, that is, you decide to approach it very differently.

Good to know you don't pay much attention to anything that doesn't conform to your pre-existing views.  At least you admit it Tongue  Now the next step is to start acknowledging the existance facts that don't support your point of view.  I'm sure you'll get the hang of it someday Smiley  Who knows, you might even manage to develop a shred of objectivity!

I believe, even ded0man will acknowledge that, as far as factual knowledge is concerned here, I am not too off Smiley What I find not worth paying attention to is argumentative demolition of irrelevant points that nobody is making: the favorite passtime of pro-Israeli commentators everywhere Smiley
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dead0man
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« Reply #495 on: August 25, 2014, 01:01:41 PM »

You think Israel would have killed a thousand plus Gazans had Hamas not broken the first ceasefire, I ain't acknowledging that you know the difference between your ass and a bucket of chicken.
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Snowstalker Mk. II
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« Reply #496 on: August 25, 2014, 01:17:11 PM »

You think Israel would have killed a thousand plus Gazans had Hamas not broken the first ceasefire, I ain't acknowledging that you know the difference between your ass and a bucket of chicken.

"If those damn Arabs would just stop resisting we wouldn't have to kill so many of them!"
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Velasco
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« Reply #497 on: August 25, 2014, 01:48:16 PM »

*it is good to have some people on the other side acknowledge that Hamas are, in fact, horrible people....some over there like to freak out when I say "bad guy" as if Hamas isn't full of racist asshole murderers.

It'd be fantastic if some people on the 'another side' was admitting that the guy who orders indiscriminate retaliatory attacks which cause thousands of civil casualties is very very bad. I know that's asking too much, 0 straw man.
and people that pay so little attention that they think the retaliatory strikes are indiscriminate aren't really worth listening to, <insert lame insult here>.

Admittedly, I didn't pay attention to most of your posts on here, but FTR I've read the other day some article you linked from The Times of Israel. The best thing that I can say is "internal consumption propaganda", which has little to do with what's reporting various international media and other people on the ground. Feel free to continue posting on "good" and "bad guys", although the result will be more or less what ag has told you. Also, not everybody on "the other side" is in honeymoon with Hamas. It's just another straw man that Likudnik propaganda likes to raise from time to time. And yes, there's a huge problem of perception in certain self-perceived 'side'. I have several FB contacts who are Jewish in the diaspora -mostly from Argentina- and the story is always the same: "The World Is Against Us". On the other hand, some Jewish people around the world -and even in Israel- say that retaliations are not executed in their names. Maybe there are more 'sides' involved in this conflict than you can imagine.
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dead0man
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« Reply #498 on: August 25, 2014, 02:39:11 PM »

Admittedly, I didn't pay attention to most of your posts on here, but FTR I've read the other day some article you linked from The Times of Israel. The best thing that I can say is "internal consumption propaganda", which has little to do with what's reporting various international media and other people on the ground.
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Obviously, and I've never even hinted at anything otherwise.  I don't know why this keeps coming up.
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Hamas is bad guys, and to put them in same league as Israel (or whatever party there you perceive I have some alliance with....which I find hilarious by the way.  I don't know all that much about internal Israeli politics.) is offensive to anybody that is paying attention and isn't blinded by the "strong vs weak" spiel so many like to preach.
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Of course and again, I've never suggested otherwise and I'm not sure why this too keeps coming up as an argument.

There is a word for arguments like that, any idea what it is?
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ag
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« Reply #499 on: August 25, 2014, 02:47:22 PM »

You think Israel would have killed a thousand plus Gazans had Hamas not broken the first ceasefire, I ain't acknowledging that you know the difference between your ass and a bucket of chicken.

I think, if necessary, it is fairly easy to provoke Hamas (or whoever else would do it) into launching a missile into thin air. This has been routinely done by Israel over the years - I do not see what is so different right now.

And, yes, I do think that killing 1000 Arabs is simply not something that anybody in Israeli leadership cares about much, except in so far that it helps domestically. Same, frankly, for having Jews killed.
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