The Present Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 29, 2024, 07:04:30 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Politics
  International General Discussion (Moderators: afleitch, Hash)
  The Present Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread
« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 16 17 18 19 20 [21] 22
Author Topic: The Present Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread  (Read 66340 times)
ag
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,828


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #500 on: August 25, 2014, 02:52:22 PM »

Hamas is bad guys, and to put them in same league as Israel (or whatever party there you perceive I have some alliance with....which I find hilarious by t

You know, Aztecs ate other people. And in large numbers. They were, truly, very bad guys. Spaniards felt really disgusted. But, you know what: Aztecs were a lot less efficient at killing than those white-faced non-cannibals.
Logged
bgwah
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 13,833
United States


Political Matrix
E: -1.03, S: -6.96

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #501 on: August 25, 2014, 03:04:57 PM »

ag vs. dead0man is about as even as the IDF vs. Hamas...
Logged
dead0man
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 46,095
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #502 on: August 25, 2014, 04:01:22 PM »

He ain't that bad, certainly better than some of the other posters in this thread.
Logged
Velasco
andi
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,686
Western Sahara


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #503 on: August 25, 2014, 04:23:53 PM »
« Edited: August 25, 2014, 04:30:26 PM by Velasco »

Quote
You must be logged in to read this quote.
Obviously, and I've never even hinted at anything otherwise.  I don't know why this keeps coming up.
(...)
There is a word for arguments like that, any idea what it is?

When you post things like that, you are speaking for yourself:

it is good to have some people on the other side acknowledge that Hamas are, in fact, horrible people....

And certainly not in my name.

I'm ready to acknowledge how bad guys are Hamaskins, Likudniks, Aztecs and awfully bearded conquistadores, but that doesn't mean that they play in the same league. Every bunch has a proper context and a proper way to be described. And, of course, they have different means at their disposal.
Logged
Sbane
sbane
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,303


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #504 on: August 26, 2014, 12:01:56 AM »

He ain't that bad, certainly better than some of the other posters in this thread.

Haha, you're the one getting destroyed, my friend. Maybe now you will finally start to understand the Palestinian perspective. Tongue
Logged
Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 67,609
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #505 on: August 26, 2014, 12:12:23 PM »

It's over, apparently.
Logged
Silent Hunter
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 9,308
United Kingdom


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #506 on: August 26, 2014, 01:04:26 PM »


Until the next time...
Logged
Filuwaúrdjan
Realpolitik
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 67,609
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #507 on: August 26, 2014, 01:25:06 PM »

Regrettably, yes.
Logged
dead0man
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 46,095
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #508 on: August 26, 2014, 04:54:40 PM »

Only if Hamas is allowed to rearm.
Logged
ag
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,828


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #509 on: August 26, 2014, 06:20:10 PM »


I am willing to bet that this is not the last time - even if every single Hamas guy dies of a heart attack tomorrow.
Logged
Hamster
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 260
WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #510 on: August 26, 2014, 09:13:06 PM »

This conflict is not a result of Hamas's existence. The environment in which Hamas flourishes was created by Israeli's policy of illegal settlements and the ghetto-ization of Gaza. Like ag said, if every Hamas soldier suffered a heart attack tomorrow, some other group would fill their place. You might not think Hamas's nationalist ideology isn't so bad if it's the Islamic State or a similar jihadist group which fills the void.
Logged
dead0man
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 46,095
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #511 on: August 26, 2014, 11:13:48 PM »

Ok, lets go with "Only if assholes living in Gaza are allowed to rearm".  Better?
Logged
ag
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,828


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #512 on: August 26, 2014, 11:45:08 PM »

Ok, lets go with "Only if assholes living in Gaza are allowed to rearm".  Better?

Unfortunately, I am afraid that you would be wrong even if Gaza simply disappeared tomorrow with all of its inhabitants. You still would have the West Bank. And I will be very pleasantly surprised if there is not another war there within reasonably short time: as far as I can see, the pressure-cooker there is not getting much relief.

That is even if we forget that the probability that some, as you call them "assholes", in Gaza will "rearm" (to the extent they are "armed" now) is pretty much 100% - at least, as long as Gaza is in its current state.

The problem is that the underlying causes of this conflict are not at all addressed at present. There is nothing that happened in the last few months that will decrease the probability of another similar conflict in reasonably short term. It was a complete waste of human lives - it pretty much changed nothing.
Logged
dead0man
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 46,095
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #513 on: August 27, 2014, 05:53:51 AM »

Ok, lets go with "Only if assholes living in Gaza are allowed to rearm".  Better?

Unfortunately, I am afraid that you would be wrong even if Gaza simply disappeared tomorrow with all of its inhabitants. You still would have the West Bank. And I will be very pleasantly surprised if there is not another war there within reasonably short time: as far as I can see, the pressure-cooker there is not getting much relief.

That is even if we forget that the probability that some, as you call them "assholes", in Gaza will "rearm" (to the extent they are "armed" now) is pretty much 100% - at least, as long as Gaza is in its current state.

The problem is that the underlying causes of this conflict are not at all addressed at present. There is nothing that happened in the last few months that will decrease the probability of another similar conflict in reasonably short term. It was a complete waste of human lives - it pretty much changed nothing.
Indeed.  As long as Israel exists there will be bigots wanting it not to exist.  Bigots more than willing to kill themselves, their children and their neighbors to reach that goal.  Peace won't come until those bigots are dead or educated.
Logged
ag
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,828


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #514 on: August 27, 2014, 09:15:01 AM »

Ok, lets go with "Only if assholes living in Gaza are allowed to rearm".  Better?

Unfortunately, I am afraid that you would be wrong even if Gaza simply disappeared tomorrow with all of its inhabitants. You still would have the West Bank. And I will be very pleasantly surprised if there is not another war there within reasonably short time: as far as I can see, the pressure-cooker there is not getting much relief.

That is even if we forget that the probability that some, as you call them "assholes", in Gaza will "rearm" (to the extent they are "armed" now) is pretty much 100% - at least, as long as Gaza is in its current state.

The problem is that the underlying causes of this conflict are not at all addressed at present. There is nothing that happened in the last few months that will decrease the probability of another similar conflict in reasonably short term. It was a complete waste of human lives - it pretty much changed nothing.
Indeed.  As long as Israel exists there will be bigots wanting it not to exist.  Bigots more than willing to kill themselves, their children and their neighbors to reach that goal.  Peace won't come until those bigots are dead or educated.

Tell me, please. Have you ever tried thinking where those "bigots" are coming from? Why are they "bigots"?

Let me just put it this way. From the standpoint of this ex-Soviet Jew, the true Jews in Israel are Israeli Arabs. They are the discriminated minority - they are the ones it is much easier to identify with. And Israeli Arabs are lucky. To the rest of the Palestinians Israel has never offered anything but minor improvements in prison regime.

So, I guess, you should start by getting your own education. Learn not to be an anti-semite. Learn to understand the real Jews.
Logged
True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
Moderators
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 42,157
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #515 on: August 28, 2014, 04:57:55 PM »

deadman, the reason why Israel is getting so much gruff in this instance is that it is seen as the instigator of this year's war.  It engaged in what most charitably can be described as a severe overreaction to the kidnapping of those three hitchhiking settlers, and what most likely was an intentional effort to strike at Hamas and thereby disrupt the attempt at a unity Palestinian government.  The reaction from Hamas at having its hornet's nest poked at was entirely predictable.  If Israel had treated the kidnapping as the crime it was instead of as an excuse to throw its weight around, then even if fighting had erupted the condemnations of Israel would only have come from the usual inevitable quarters rather than being as broad as they were this time.
Logged
dead0man
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 46,095
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #516 on: August 28, 2014, 05:02:22 PM »

Timeline:
1.On 12Jun14 the 3 teens were kidnapped and murdered.
2.Israeli cops start looking for the asshats/and start rounding up bad guys they let go in the Gilad Shalit "deal".
3.meanwhile, there had been rockets out of Gaza everyday (save 5 days, 80 rockets on 1 July was the high mark) between the kidnapping and the Israeli response which came on....
4.8Jul14 the sh**t hit the fan
Logged
ag
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,828


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #517 on: August 28, 2014, 05:42:42 PM »
« Edited: August 28, 2014, 05:44:20 PM by ag »

As far as I am concerned (and, of course, this is a personal view), it is not merely the overreaction to whatever provocation, it goes deeper. Israeli governments in recent years have been obviously content with the status quo: Arabs behind the wall and closely guarded. If they misbehave they can be punished by bombing the hell out of them. No need to bother about any proposals for a settlement - there will be no settlement, and that is fine, because it avoids taking the tough decisions.

The problem with this line is that, as long as there is no settlement, Israel is the occupying power with millions of people at its mercy. One may say whatever one likes about Gaza not being Israeli responsibility anymore. But, unfortunately, as long as there is no settlement, it is still in charge - of, at the very least, most of external communication (and of the timing when to do the punishment). And as the power in charge, Israel remains responsible for the welfare of Gazans - as much as prison guards would be responsible for the welfare of prisoners.

I do not have any personal stake in what the settlement should be - I, honestly, do not much care, as long as it is consistent with my basic views on human and civil rights. But, at present, there seems to be only 2 plausible directions: either partition or integration. Partition would presume Israeli territorial sacrifice in the West Bank. Integration would presume Israeli ideological sacrifice either on its "Jewishness"or on its democracy. Neither seems acceptable to the current crop of Israeli leaders. They prefer the status quo to either solution. Ok, fine. But, then, they remain the de facto prison wardens of the population, both in the West Bank and in Gaza. They do not like the responsibility? Tough, they chose to keep it.
Logged
True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
Moderators
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 42,157
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #518 on: August 28, 2014, 05:55:22 PM »

Timeline:
1.On 12Jun14 the 3 teens were kidnapped and murdered.
2.Israeli cops start looking for the asshats/and start rounding up bad guys they let go in the Gilad Shalit "deal".
3.meanwhile, there had been rockets out of Gaza everyday (save 5 days, 80 rockets on 1 July was the high mark) between the kidnapping and the Israeli response which came on....
4.8Jul14 the sh**t hit the fan

As you yourself pointed out, the Israeli government used the kidnapping as an excuse to renege on the Gilad Shalit "deal" by rounding up everyone they wanted to lock away without a key under the pretense of it being police work. And then they were shocked, shocked I tell you, that Hamas retaliated by the only means they had.

Now I agree that the Gilad Shalit "deal" was a bad one, but that doesn't affect the facts concerning the kidnapping.
Logged
Snowstalker Mk. II
Snowstalker
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 20,414
Palestinian Territory, Occupied


Political Matrix
E: -7.10, S: -4.35

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #519 on: August 28, 2014, 08:05:34 PM »

dead0man's understanding of international conflict is about as complex as a G.I. Joe cartoon.
Logged
dead0man
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 46,095
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #520 on: August 29, 2014, 06:36:30 AM »

Timeline:
1.On 12Jun14 the 3 teens were kidnapped and murdered.
2.Israeli cops start looking for the asshats/and start rounding up bad guys they let go in the Gilad Shalit "deal".
3.meanwhile, there had been rockets out of Gaza everyday (save 5 days, 80 rockets on 1 July was the high mark) between the kidnapping and the Israeli response which came on....
4.8Jul14 the sh**t hit the fan

As you yourself pointed out, the Israeli government used the kidnapping as an excuse to renege on the Gilad Shalit "deal" by rounding up everyone they wanted to lock away without a key under the pretense of it being police work. And then they were shocked, shocked I tell you, that Hamas retaliated by the only means they had.

Now I agree that the Gilad Shalit "deal" was a bad one, but that doesn't affect the facts concerning the kidnapping.
What's worse, rounding up a coupe hundred bad guys or killing 3 civilians hiking?  What's worse, rounding up a couple hundred bad guys or launching hundreds of rockets at civilians?
Logged
True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
Moderators
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 42,157
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #521 on: August 29, 2014, 09:34:51 AM »

Timeline:
1.On 12Jun14 the 3 teens were kidnapped and murdered.
2.Israeli cops start looking for the asshats/and start rounding up bad guys they let go in the Gilad Shalit "deal".
3.meanwhile, there had been rockets out of Gaza everyday (save 5 days, 80 rockets on 1 July was the high mark) between the kidnapping and the Israeli response which came on....
4.8Jul14 the sh**t hit the fan

As you yourself pointed out, the Israeli government used the kidnapping as an excuse to renege on the Gilad Shalit "deal" by rounding up everyone they wanted to lock away without a key under the pretense of it being police work. And then they were shocked, shocked I tell you, that Hamas retaliated by the only means they had.

Now I agree that the Gilad Shalit "deal" was a bad one, but that doesn't affect the facts concerning the kidnapping.
What's worse, rounding up a coupe hundred bad guys or killing 3 civilians hiking?  What's worse, rounding up a couple hundred bad guys or launching hundreds of rockets at civilians?

The fact that Hamas is worse doesn't excuse Israel for being bad.  By that standard, Mussolini should have been excused since he wasn't as bad as Hitler.  Rounding up several hundred people without any evidence they had anything to with the crime is bad for any government that claims to be on the side of law and justice.  If Israel wants to be treated as one of the good guys, then it has to act like one.  If it wants to be treated as another third world banana republic (or in Israel's case, orange republic) then it did fine.
Logged
dead0man
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 46,095
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #522 on: August 29, 2014, 09:37:57 AM »

What Mussolini level thing did they do?
Logged
True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
Moderators
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 42,157
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #523 on: August 29, 2014, 02:56:49 PM »

In this specific case, rounding up large numbers of people without evidence of involvement in the kidnapping.  Israel likes to claim it is the only Western-style democracy in the area, but that means it'll be judged as one, and when it comes to the area beyond the 1949-1967 borders it consistently fails to act as one.
Logged
ag
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,828


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #524 on: August 29, 2014, 03:13:53 PM »

In this specific case, rounding up large numbers of people without evidence of involvement in the kidnapping.  Israel likes to claim it is the only Western-style democracy in the area, but that means it'll be judged as one, and when it comes to the area beyond the 1949-1967 borders it consistently fails to act as one.

Outside the 1967 borders Israel is not a democracy, but an occupying/colonizing power. And this, of course, corrupts.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 16 17 18 19 20 [21] 22  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.059 seconds with 12 queries.