The Present Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread

[Silent Hunter]

It's not as relevant who exactly started the missile launches this iteration. The fact that Israel has staged a naval blockade around Gaza for years is sufficient grounds for military retaliation.

Definitely, but you can argue it's not grounds for indiscriminate rocket attacks.

[Silent Hunter]

I've just come back from Cardiff and walked past a pro-Palestinian demonstration on my way back to Central station. The chant of the c. 300 crowd went as follows:

"Free, Free, Palestine! From the river to the sea! Palestine!"

I'll let you draw what ever conclusions you want to from that.

[Silent Hunter]

I couldn't tell whether there they were Muslims or not; it's kind of hard to tell that sort of thing without asking and I was too busy to ask.

[Silent Hunter]

It must be glorious to live in such a post racial world, when you can not even look at a group of people and make a educated guess whether these people are Britons of native origin or of Middle Eastern or Asian (as the term are used in Britain) origin.

Middle Eastern or Asian doesn't equal Muslim... it can just as easily equal Hindu, Sikh or Jew. Also, here's another headscarf wearer.

[Silent Hunter]

What do you mean? If I kill someone, I am the one responsible for it, whether third-parties consider it legitimate or not.

Then Hamas is 100% responsible for their actions, then?

[Silent Hunter]

One can generally predict a tone of an article on this just by someone's name...

[Silent Hunter]

One can generally predict a tone of an article on this just by someone's name...

RACIST!

If someone said this about a Jewish writer.....

My apologies - that was an excessive generalisation.

[Silent Hunter]

Israel now says that the soldier was in fact killed.

[Silent Hunter]

It should be noted that it's an online newspaper with an open blog platform so it is more like one guy being a bit mental. Not THAT reflective of anything.

Sounds like the "Comment is Free" section on the Guardian site.

[Silent Hunter]

By the standards of a western democracy, Israel's current actions are horrible and disgusting.

I totally don't understand how this is just a "known" thing.  How do you think a European country would act in the same situation?  Do you guys REALLY think Germany would send an angry letter if missiles were launched at their civilians every few days (and that's during the "cold" part of the conflict)?  Or if there were tunnels built (that again cost many millions and use child slave labor to construct where hundreds have died) for the sole purpose of kidnapping/murdering your civilians?  What action(s) have Western democracies done to make people think they wouldn't take action in such a scenario.

Indeed, we already have an example of what happens when a European country gets ballistic missiles targeted at its cities... it's called the Second World War.

[Silent Hunter]

I don't know why Israel would be so bothered by a militarized Palestine when they're already surrounded by several militarized countries that have attacked them in the past and didn't have any trouble repelling them. A Palestinian military that is an organ of the state is far less likely to do something as inflammatory as attack Israel than a non-state militia like Hamas is. And if Israel doesn't allow Palestine to have a full-fledged military, Hamas is going to fill that void just as it does now. And the Palestinian government will have no more ability to control the actions of those militias than they do now.

They had plenty of trouble in 1973. If you look at their neighbours, they have peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan, Lebanon doesn't rate as a military and Syria is in the midst of a civil war.

[Silent Hunter]

I don't know why Israel would be so bothered by a militarized Palestine when they're already surrounded by several militarized countries that have attacked them in the past and didn't have any trouble repelling them. A Palestinian military that is an organ of the state is far less likely to do something as inflammatory as attack Israel than a non-state militia like Hamas is. And if Israel doesn't allow Palestine to have a full-fledged military, Hamas is going to fill that void just as it does now. And the Palestinian government will have no more ability to control the actions of those militias than they do now.

They had plenty of trouble in 1973. If you look at their neighbours, they have peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan, Lebanon doesn't rate as a military and Syria is in the midst of a civil war.

Yes and the Syrian border have always been the one peaceful border Israel had.

Not in the 1980s it wasn't.

[Silent Hunter]

If anything a proper and regularised Palestinian military would be in Israel's interests for several very obvious reasons.

Let's face it, we're not getting a long-term solution to this problem with the current Israeli leader; remember his brother was killed by Palestinians at Entebbe.

[Silent Hunter]

Hamas are a really incompetent terrorist group at times.

FWIW, there's a great article on the BBC site about how the casualty figures should be taken with some degree of caution:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28688179

[Silent Hunter]

25 years ago you'd be one of those idiots calling Mandela a terrorist.

By 1989, Umkhonto we Sizwe had committed a number of acts that could be legitimately described as terrorism, FWIW.

[Silent Hunter]

Also, if their (Hamas) demands are not met by Sunday they are going to attack Tel Aviv.  Whatever that means.

Chuck rockets at it.

[Silent Hunter]

THAT is false. Like I said, only 15-20% of Hamas's budget goes to military operations.

http://www.newstatesman.com/books/2007/05/hamas-palestinian-israel

1. That's a 7 year old article.
2. 15-20% is still an awful lot to spend on the military.

Israel are considering a full invasion and toppling of Hamas... in which there is going to even more death. I despair of this world at times.

[Silent Hunter]

New truce agreed

[Silent Hunter]

Would a disarmed Palestinian state be that bad a thing? No-one's invaded Costa Rica.

[Silent Hunter]

Netanyahu has recalled the Israeli delegation.

Mind-numbingly stupid thing to do, especially considering it's likely that Hamas wasn't the group that shot the rockets (more likely PRC or one of the Jihadi groups.

It's still their territory and it's not like they're condemning it.

[Silent Hunter]

“The missiles that are now being launched against Israel, each and every missile constitutes a crime against humanity, whether it hits or misses, because it is directed at civilian targets,”

Good things they don't launch missiles but rather rockets...

The only difference between a missile and a rocket is the presence of an internal guidance system.

[Silent Hunter]

I mostly agree with ag (maybe not on the last part).

Except the only reason so few people die is because they all, every one of them Jew, Arab, whatever have to run for their lives and hide in bunkers.  It's freaking amazing so few have died.  You've got to be impressed with that. 

Not really, there are two more important reasons:
-The rockets are totally imprecise and they land wherever chance (or God ) brings them. Given the relatively low density of the area around the Gaza strip, it's unlikely for rockets to land on a house or someone. Many just land in empty areas.

None of that changes the intent behind the rocket attacks.

[Silent Hunter]

It's over, apparently.

Until the next time...