The Present Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread

[swl]

I've just come back from Cardiff and walked past a pro-Palestinian demonstration on my way back to Central station. The chant of the c. 300 crowd went as follows:

"Free, Free, Palestine! From the river to the sea! Palestine!"

I'll let you draw what ever conclusions you want to from that.

Today in France it was "Israel murderer" vs "Palestine f*** you in the ass".

[swl]

You're a joke... Apparently the attack on the synagogue was a hoax. Fighting happened between some pro-palestinians and the Jewish Defense League (terrorist organization in the US, but not in
France) who was posted near the synagogue. On both side you have people who are only here to fight, and they know very well were to find each other. They are like football hooligans. And in Sarcelles many shops were looted, most of the attacked shops belong to Chaldeans (Christians then), it's likely that one was a Jewish shop but the looters just attacked anything were there was something to steal.

Also it's been Israel strategy for years to scare French Jews to push them to move to Israel. They are the biggest Jewish community in Europe and zionists want them in Israel, see for example:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/immigration-to-israel-slowing-except-from-france/2014/01/24/162861b8-8416-11e3-a273-6ffd9cf9f4ba_story.html

[swl]

One source is this interview from the president of the Synagogue: http://www.itele.fr/france/video/incidents-rue-de-la-roquette-serge-benhaim-dement-toute-attaque-de-la-synagogue-88717

There is a pro-Israel gathering in the synagogue. The Jewish Defense League (more information here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Defense_League) does not join the gathering and stays outside. They are not peaceful guys: the goal of the organization is to fight and they train for that.

The pro-Palestine demonstration is few tens of meters away. Even is there is no official "violent" organization on their side (some people created a Muslim Defense League, there are also some violent "Dieudonnists", but so far they have not really managed to organize the thing), there is also a number of hooligans there, who came only to fight.

Both groups look for each other, and you end up with this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrhTWGvPkJ8

We have our own small replica of the Israel-Palestine conflict in France: 1% of extremists on both sides, 99% of peaceful people drawn into the conflict against their will, and the "white" far-right enjoying the show and waiting for the right time to conclude that we should get rid of both Muslims and Jews.

[swl]

It is Hamas that is to blame for the deaths of Palestinian civilians in Gaza.

No. You can find as many excuses as you want, you can invoke legitimate defense, but the truth is that the one pulling the trigger is 100% responsible for it. Whether it should be excused or not is another issue.

[swl]

What do you mean? If I kill someone, I am the one responsible for it, whether third-parties consider it legitimate or not.

Likewise, Israel is 100% responsible for the way they decide to react to Hamas' provocations.



It looks like the situation is turning violent in the West Bank, we may be at the beginning of a new uprising there.

[swl]

Aren't we all?

[swl]

Their turning down a ceasefire is the ONLY reason Israel started the ground offensive.

I have to disagree with you on that: Netanyahu repeated several times that Israel started the ground offensive in order to destroy the tunnels between Gaza and Israel.

[swl]

You think Israel would have gone ahead with the ground offensive if Hamas accepted the ceasefire?

How could I know? I am not in their heads.
When it comes to explaining Israel's offensive, I consider Netanyahu to be a more trustworthy source than you, I think you can understand that.

[swl]

Which adds to the additional domestic factors prolonging things on both sides. Sigh.

Also both sides are convinced that they will be in a stronger position for negotiations if the conflict last a few more days.

Kerry is obviously tired of spending so much time on this while the situation in Ukraine/Russia is getting worse.

[swl]

Now Kerry is saying that he never proposed a ceasefire agreement to Israel and that Bibi lied to please its domestic audience.

[swl]

It's true that things don't look good for the PA (they can only blame themselves though), a landslide victory for Hamas in the general elections seems very likely, even in the West Bank.

[swl]

By the standards of a western democracy, Israel's current actions are horrible and disgusting.

I totally don't understand how this is just a "known" thing.  How do you think a European country would act in the same situation?

Leave the colonies, like the UK, France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Spain or Portugal did after 1945?

[swl]

So what is all this conflict about if not two peoples fighting for the same land?

[swl]

And here we have a Palestinian girl whose home was demolished by Israel trying to retrieve her books from inside. Oh well, she's clearly a terrorist and those books are probably copies of the Koran and Mein Kampf. There was no other option.

And meanwhile, this is what Israel calls a terror attack.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfi0xYfiTtM#t=143

http://www.jpost.com/National-News/Tractor-hits-bus-injuring-2-in-suspected-terror-attack-in-Jerusalem-369993

[swl]

They have never offered to agree to a two-state solution. Nothing but the Palestinian flag flying over a Jew-free Tel Aviv is acceptable to them.

Have they even been formally asked about it? And even if they reject the idea, it is only words while Israel's acts during the last decades are proving that they do not agree with a two-states solution either.

[swl]

Prove it. I am curious to know when and where the discussions took place. I thought Hamas was a terrorist organization no one wants to talk with?

It's sad that you know so much about Israel's actions this past decade but don't know if Hamas has been asked about a 2 state solution.  Not surprising, but certainly sad.

I meant decades, in plural.

[swl]

Notice that part at the end?  Even they admit (with the silence) that the violence will continue even if Israel gives into their unreasonable demands.

So, the leader or Hamas agreed to a two-state solution, according to your quote. Why are you deliberately lying and pretending the opposite? Of course there is going to be violence between the two states, the ideal solution would be for Israelis and Palestinians to suddenly become best friends (France-Germany way), but the truth is that their relations will likely be something like the India-Pakistan relations, unless some miracle happen.

[swl]

link

A 24hr extension to cease fire to hammer out the details.  Looks like the peace will hold....reports for the truce include:
1. The Erez and Kerem Shalom crossings will be opened permanently, with building materials allowed to enter under international supervision.

2. The area allowed for fishing in Gaza waters will be expanded from 6 to 9 miles, and then to 12 miles (as Hamas demanded) within 6 months.

3. Gaza’s electrical crisis will be solved within a year.

4. A principled agreement was reached to build a seaport in Gaza, a matter to be discussed in a month.

5. The release of Palestinian prisoners will be discussed one month from the signing of the agreement.

I don't think that a truce will be agreed on these terms, as shown by the events of today. Points 1 and 2 seem acceptable for both sides. Point 4 seems more or less ok, but points 3 and 5 seem too vague to be accepted by the Palestinians.

[swl]

I mostly agree with ag (maybe not on the last part).

Except the only reason so few people die is because they all, every one of them Jew, Arab, whatever have to run for their lives and hide in bunkers.  It's freaking amazing so few have died.  You've got to be impressed with that.  

Not really, there are two more important reasons:
-The rockets are totally imprecise and they land wherever chance (or God ) brings them. Given the relatively low density of the area around the Gaza strip, it's unlikely for rockets to land on a house or someone. Many just land in empty areas.
-The Iron Dome works well.

[swl]

Yes you are right, with time the technology on Hamas side is improving and they have more and more sophisticated rockets. But for example the shock created by the rocket landing near the airport in Tel-Aviv last month shows that it's not that common yet.
One more reason for Israel to seek peace.