The Present Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread

[ag]

Do you know how many more Gazans would be alive if Hamas had not broken the first ceasefire?

That Hamas is evil is not at issue here. Yes, they are a gang of fanatics, who don´t much care about the lives of their people. No dispute there.

However, the point is, they have been quite successfully neutralized years ago. The disparity in actual military and intelligence capacity is so humongous, that these day a pretty much necessary precondition for them to be able to hurt any Israeli is for Israel to send troops into Gaza (occasional rocket escaping the shield notwithstanding - pretty much anybody living in any big city in the world, probably, has a higher chance of being murdered while strolling in the park, than an Israeli has of being hit by that rocket). Israel is completely in control of the situation. Hence, it is pretty much irrelevant what Hamas is. Yes, they are SOB´s - and they do not, really, threaten anybody, except for their own people.

It is because of this degree of control over the situation that Israel is exercising at will that it is going to be blamed for whatever happens. Hamas "provoking" whatever is a joke - they are imprisoned within Gaza. Israeli leaders have the full luxury of deciding when and what to do. Hence, it is obvious to anyone paying even token attention that they happily use whatever "provocation" Hamas gives them for domestic political reasons. Frankly, I have long been under suspicion that they take care of provoking the impotent Hamas reaction wherever they need it - and send in the troops when it suites them that a few Jews get killed for a political effect. In fact, I am not going to be surprised if it turns out that Hamas is being consciously kept in power in Gaza to make this easier.

To sum up: yes, Hamas are a bunch of evil SOBs. We do not expect anything but ugliness from them. But they are irrelevant. The guy giving the orders to kill Jews is not any Hamasnik, but PM Netanyahu. And he does it whenever it suites him.

[ag]

In the same way me and Micheal Jordan are both basketball players.

True: Likud succeeds where Hamas fails.

Yes, of course, Likudniks appear somewhat civilized and sane, whereas Hamasniks are a collection of medeival fanatics. But it is the matter of strength. And because of that the former organization is much more dangerous for all involved than the latter.

[ag]

So you're saying that if Hamas hadn't broken the first ceasefire Israel would have still killed a thousand Palestinians?  That's is complete bull spit and if you honestly believe that I don't know why I'm wasting my time.

Well, you ARE wasting your time. Because this is the point that is shared by most people outside the comfy right-wing Zionist circle. And, unless you seriously address it, you are not likely to convince anyone of anything. Unfortunately, I am afraid, if you try to seriously address, and, hence, research and think about it, you might be in for some serious lifetime disappointments.

In fact, this is one of the major reasons for why Israeli propaganda is so ineffective. Israelis like to think of themselves as a tiny precarious state under sustained attack from the world. The rest of the world sees Israel as an ultra-powerful military machine lashing out at all those around it at (at best) slightest provocation. Any attempt to argue that "we are just defending ourselves", which is not taking into account the perceived balance of forces is not going to be effective. Trust me.

This is not the only problem with Israeli propaganda. And most of these have to do with rather similar distinctions in perception. Unless Israelis (and their supporters) figure out how they are perceived from the outside, they will always be fighting propaganda battles with imaginary adversaries. Easy to win those battles. Pity, defeating imaginary opponent convinces nobody.

[ag]

So you're saying that if Hamas hadn't broken the first ceasefire Israel would have still killed a thousand Palestinians?  That's is complete bull spit and if you honestly believe that I don't know why I'm wasting my time.

Well, you ARE wasting your time.

Agreed.

Hence, relax and stop bothering commenting on Israel affairs. None, except of those already convinced, will pay much attention to you anyway - unless, that is, you decide to approach it very differently.

[ag]

So you're saying that if Hamas hadn't broken the first ceasefire Israel would have still killed a thousand Palestinians?  That's is complete bull spit and if you honestly believe that I don't know why I'm wasting my time.

Well, you ARE wasting your time.

Agreed.

Hence, relax and stop bothering commenting on Israel affairs. None, except of those already convinced, will pay much attention to you anyway - unless, that is, you decide to approach it very differently.

Good to know you don't pay much attention to anything that doesn't conform to your pre-existing views.  At least you admit it  Now the next step is to start acknowledging the existance facts that don't support your point of view.  I'm sure you'll get the hang of it someday  Who knows, you might even manage to develop a shred of objectivity!

I believe, even ded0man will acknowledge that, as far as factual knowledge is concerned here, I am not too off What I find not worth paying attention to is argumentative demolition of irrelevant points that nobody is making: the favorite passtime of pro-Israeli commentators everywhere

[ag]

You think Israel would have killed a thousand plus Gazans had Hamas not broken the first ceasefire, I ain't acknowledging that you know the difference between your ass and a bucket of chicken.

I think, if necessary, it is fairly easy to provoke Hamas (or whoever else would do it) into launching a missile into thin air. This has been routinely done by Israel over the years - I do not see what is so different right now.

And, yes, I do think that killing 1000 Arabs is simply not something that anybody in Israeli leadership cares about much, except in so far that it helps domestically. Same, frankly, for having Jews killed.

[ag]

Hamas is bad guys, and to put them in same league as Israel (or whatever party there you perceive I have some alliance with....which I find hilarious by t

You know, Aztecs ate other people. And in large numbers. They were, truly, very bad guys. Spaniards felt really disgusted. But, you know what: Aztecs were a lot less efficient at killing than those white-faced non-cannibals.

[ag]

Only if Hamas is allowed to rearm.

I am willing to bet that this is not the last time - even if every single Hamas guy dies of a heart attack tomorrow.

[ag]

Ok, lets go with "Only if assholes living in Gaza are allowed to rearm".  Better?

Unfortunately, I am afraid that you would be wrong even if Gaza simply disappeared tomorrow with all of its inhabitants. You still would have the West Bank. And I will be very pleasantly surprised if there is not another war there within reasonably short time: as far as I can see, the pressure-cooker there is not getting much relief.

That is even if we forget that the probability that some, as you call them "assholes", in Gaza will "rearm" (to the extent they are "armed" now) is pretty much 100% - at least, as long as Gaza is in its current state.

The problem is that the underlying causes of this conflict are not at all addressed at present. There is nothing that happened in the last few months that will decrease the probability of another similar conflict in reasonably short term. It was a complete waste of human lives - it pretty much changed nothing.

[ag]

Ok, lets go with "Only if assholes living in Gaza are allowed to rearm".  Better?

Unfortunately, I am afraid that you would be wrong even if Gaza simply disappeared tomorrow with all of its inhabitants. You still would have the West Bank. And I will be very pleasantly surprised if there is not another war there within reasonably short time: as far as I can see, the pressure-cooker there is not getting much relief.

That is even if we forget that the probability that some, as you call them "assholes", in Gaza will "rearm" (to the extent they are "armed" now) is pretty much 100% - at least, as long as Gaza is in its current state.

The problem is that the underlying causes of this conflict are not at all addressed at present. There is nothing that happened in the last few months that will decrease the probability of another similar conflict in reasonably short term. It was a complete waste of human lives - it pretty much changed nothing.

Indeed.  As long as Israel exists there will be bigots wanting it not to exist.  Bigots more than willing to kill themselves, their children and their neighbors to reach that goal.  Peace won't come until those bigots are dead or educated.

Tell me, please. Have you ever tried thinking where those "bigots" are coming from? Why are they "bigots"?

Let me just put it this way. From the standpoint of this ex-Soviet Jew, the true Jews in Israel are Israeli Arabs. They are the discriminated minority - they are the ones it is much easier to identify with. And Israeli Arabs are lucky. To the rest of the Palestinians Israel has never offered anything but minor improvements in prison regime.

So, I guess, you should start by getting your own education. Learn not to be an anti-semite. Learn to understand the real Jews.

[ag]

As far as I am concerned (and, of course, this is a personal view), it is not merely the overreaction to whatever provocation, it goes deeper. Israeli governments in recent years have been obviously content with the status quo: Arabs behind the wall and closely guarded. If they misbehave they can be punished by bombing the hell out of them. No need to bother about any proposals for a settlement - there will be no settlement, and that is fine, because it avoids taking the tough decisions.

The problem with this line is that, as long as there is no settlement, Israel is the occupying power with millions of people at its mercy. One may say whatever one likes about Gaza not being Israeli responsibility anymore. But, unfortunately, as long as there is no settlement, it is still in charge - of, at the very least, most of external communication (and of the timing when to do the punishment). And as the power in charge, Israel remains responsible for the welfare of Gazans - as much as prison guards would be responsible for the welfare of prisoners.

I do not have any personal stake in what the settlement should be - I, honestly, do not much care, as long as it is consistent with my basic views on human and civil rights. But, at present, there seems to be only 2 plausible directions: either partition or integration. Partition would presume Israeli territorial sacrifice in the West Bank. Integration would presume Israeli ideological sacrifice either on its "Jewishness"or on its democracy. Neither seems acceptable to the current crop of Israeli leaders. They prefer the status quo to either solution. Ok, fine. But, then, they remain the de facto prison wardens of the population, both in the West Bank and in Gaza. They do not like the responsibility? Tough, they chose to keep it.

[ag]

In this specific case, rounding up large numbers of people without evidence of involvement in the kidnapping.  Israel likes to claim it is the only Western-style democracy in the area, but that means it'll be judged as one, and when it comes to the area beyond the 1949-1967 borders it consistently fails to act as one.

Outside the 1967 borders Israel is not a democracy, but an occupying/colonizing power. And this, of course, corrupts.