The Present Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread

[dead0man]

1. It isn't entirely clear who started bombing whom. The Times makes it look like Israel started it as a response to the killing of the teenagers, when the BBC states flatly "Hamas claimed responsibility for firing rockets for the first time in 20 months" to which the Israelis responded with their campaign.

The Times is wrong.  Timeline:
1.On 12Jun14 the 3 teens were kidnapped and murdered.
2.Israeli cops start looking for the asshats/and start rounding up bad guys they let go in the Gilad Shalit "deal".
3.meanwhile, there had been rockets out of Gaza everyday (save 5 days, 80 rockets on 1 July was the high mark) between the kidnapping and the Israeli response which came on....
4.8Jul14 the sh**t hit the fan

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Their best rocketeers don't fire "randomly".  They have a target (normally civilian) in mind and fire in that general direction.  The worst of them are truely random, aimed in some direction not towards the sea and fired (on a timer so they ain't there when the retaliation comes and from the roof of a grade school, so they can maybe get some dead kids to further their PR campaign).  And yes, that does explain why (as of yesterday morning) 118 rockets failed to even leave the strip, 2 of which have blown up the electrical towers coming in from Israel knocking out power to 20% of Gaza (yes, Israel is still providing electricity to Gaza....the monsters!).

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Hamas doesn't care at all about the lives of Gazans, that has to be fairly obvious to anybody even halfassed paying attention.  The IDF, despite all the rhetoric from the other side, cares more about civilians in Gaza than Hamas does.

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I'm with you there.  The settlements should stop.

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All the Arabs that didn't flee in '47 have normal rights in Israel.  They vote, they have passports, they can be elected to the Knesset, they aren't drafted but can join the IDF, they are generally doing better than Arabs in Arab countries.  Yes, sadly they do face discrimination, it's not the perfect situation but:

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or

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[dead0man]

There is a lot of people posting in these threads that hate the debate or have given up on the issue.

[dead0man]

Indeed.  Hopefully this is the end of Hamas and peace can have a slim chance again.

[dead0man]

4: To the extent that these unicorns are out there, they're going to be found in the Islamist strain of Islam and in number 3 above.

AND it's quite prevalent on the left, especially the European left and others lefties that wish they were European leftists.  I don't know why you guys keep ignoring those specific racists.

[dead0man]

The speed of which threads on this subject suddenly lurch into absolute sh!t is often quite remarkable. Surely there's the rest of the internet to play with?

Well, most places with a high level of discourse wouldn't let posters like Snow or TNF stick around, so this is actually a good place to get the opinion of the blind and bigoted.  Plus they have better grammer/spelling than the comments section of RT or YouTube.

[dead0man]

The former director of the American Jewish Congress has offered his take in Politico, though I doubt Ray Goldfield, dead0man and others will like what he has to say.

I don't like or dislike what he has to say.  He made his complaints and critiques without the subtle (or not so subtle) racism we see way too often from others on the subject.  I can understand being against the invasion (I'm not FOR the invasion, but I understand the reasons why).  I can understand thinking it's fine to just hide under the now effective Iron Dome and let the world watch while the angry impotent dogs fire their weapons of terror at civilians by the thousands while doing limited physical damage.  I don't agree with it and think targeting of the launchers is a valid response, but it's a valid argument.

Sorry I'm not as foaming with hate as so many here on the other side.

[dead0man]

Which is weird because they do more THAN ANY NATION IN HISTORY at limiting civilian casualties.  What other nation calls the building before bombing it to warn the people inside?  What other nation drops a small bomb first after the phone call to show they are serious?  Yes, mistakes have been and will be made.  It's especially hard to limit casualties when the local bad guys force civilians to stay in certain places at gun point.  It's especially hard when the bad guys use their hospitals, schools, ambulances and UN facilities (all 4 of those are documented have happened in the last week) to hide or launch their terror weapons.


The IDF cares and SHOWS they care more about civilians in Gaza than the people in charge of Gaza.  I don't understand how any thinking person can come up with any other conclusion.

[dead0man]

Which is weird because they do more THAN ANY NATION IN HISTORY at limiting civilian casualties.  What other nation calls the building before bombing it to warn the people inside?  What other nation drops a small bomb first after the phone call to show they are serious?  Yes, mistakes have been and will be made.  It's especially hard to limit casualties when the local bad guys force civilians to stay in certain places at gun point.  It's especially hard when the bad guys use their hospitals, schools, ambulances and UN facilities (all 4 of those are documented have happened in the last week) to hide or launch their terror weapons.


The IDF cares and SHOWS they care more about civilians in Gaza than the people in charge of Gaza.  I don't understand how any thinking person can come up with any other conclusion.

Well hate to agree with Snowstalker,

Indeed.

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Is there though?  I noticed you (nor the bigot) refuted the facts in my post, just the conclusion.

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Hamas IS bad guys.  Is that even up for debate?  I don't even think the bigots here like Hamas.

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I think there is a point where they could/would cross that line, I just don't think the facts on the ground say they've hit that line yet.

[dead0man]

Israel also uses a very weird definition of civilian that the rest of the world doesn't.

?

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Certainly true, thankfully that's not how the people doing the actual fighting actually feel (for the most part, there are always exceptions).

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I'm not saying that has never happened, but it's certainly not common practice.

"Angry impotent dogs" - yeah, no foam in your mouth.

Nope.  Hamas are angry, impotent dogs.  Ok, "dogs" might be a bit mean spirited.

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Because nobody here will AFAIK consistently defend their acts of terror or the good guys response to them.  That's not true with Hamas.  If you'll note, I'm not the only person in these threads.

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Nice try, but nope.  I've stated many times here and elsewhere that I think the west should use it's muscle to assist people who need it all over the world.  That would be almost exclusively to help brown people remove themselves from the brown people keeping them down.  Bill Clinton wasn't wrong trying to feed Somalia in 93, he was wrong for stopping when we got our nose bloodied.  As I've said before, all the "good guys" should get together, make a list of the biggest funked up places on Earth.  Start at the top and ask, "can we do something about this?" If no, move on to number 2, if yes ask, "will it be worth the cost in blood and coin?".  If no, move on to number 2, if yes we do it.  We get together, figure out who should run the show for this round, and then give them all the assistance they need in reaching that goal.  The US shouldn't be the one taking the lead most of the time, but we should help any and every way possible.


In short, the west should have put it's boot up Boko Haram's (and a lot of other bad guys) ass a long time ago.

[dead0man]

You are mostly correct, this particular case was more hooligans vs hooligans than anything else.  The video is fun though, the cameraman takes GREAT care to rarely show one side of the brawl.

[dead0man]

They care ?

yes

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YES!

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sometimes

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I don't think they sing them a song when they call, I'd imagine they just tell them that because Hamas has hidden rockets in the basement that it's a legitimate military target and that if they want to live, they should probably leave....hopefully Hamas lets them.

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I don't think Hamas read bedtime stories, maybe if they feature a Jewish dog being beaten.  Hamas is the only group in this fight that regularly detains Palestinians and then murders them.

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nah, I'm good.

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Agreed.

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Agreed.

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Agreed.  Which is why it's really stupid for Hamas to keep fighting....especially when they have been given several outs already.

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As I've said before, I'm no fan of the settlements, but they are LIGHT YEARS better than shooting rockets at civilians.

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Israel removed settlements in the Sinai.  No problems with the state of Egypt since.  Israel removed the settlements from Gaza and it changed nothing.  Again, I agree the settlements in the West Bank should be stopped and removed, though it will hurt Palestinians in the short term as 22,000 of them work in the settlements.

Hamas is fighting for it's life.  They wanted this fight and they got it.  It's lost most all of it's support due to it's instigation.  Hopefully they will be destroyed.  Hopefully the PA, Egypt, the West, whomever, can step right in and clean the mess up.

[dead0man]

Did you really just insinuate legitimate defense isn't a legitimate defense?

[dead0man]

Well, you said

you can invoke legitimate defense, but the truth is that the one pulling the trigger is 100% responsible for it.

Wouldn't a legitimate defense be a legitimate defense?

What do you mean? If I kill someone, I am the one responsible for it, whether third-parties consider it legitimate or not.

If those third parties are the law, then it matters a lot.  If you kill someone in self defense (which is what this is), sure, you are responsible and have to live with what you did, but you were still in the right, and that's all that matters.

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Sure, and Hamas is 100% responsible for their actions.  Their turning down a ceasefire is the ONLY reason Israel started the ground offensive.

[dead0man]

Their turning down a ceasefire is the ONLY reason Israel started the ground offensive.

I have to disagree with you on that: Netanyahu repeated several times that Israel started the ground offensive in order to destroy the tunnels between Gaza and Israel.

You think Israel would have gone ahead with the ground offensive if Hamas accepted the ceasefire?

Israel removed settlements in the Sinai.  No problems with the state of Egypt since.  Israel removed the settlements from Gaza and it changed nothing.

There's a ton of difference between a mostly barren Sinai and the tightly packed ticking time-bomb of a ghetto that is Gaza.

What does that have to do with Israel dismantling the settlements?  There were settlements in the Sinai, and for peace Israel gave them up.  The peace lasted.  There were settlements in Gaza, and for peace Israel gave them up.  The peace didn't last.

[dead0man]

Israel would NOT have invaded Gaza had they accepted the ceasefire.  Israel had already accepted it at the time.

[dead0man]

Israel removed settlements in the Sinai.  No problems with the state of Egypt since.  Israel removed the settlements from Gaza and it changed nothing.

That probably has something to do with the fact that Israel does not control all of Egypt's borders, does not deny Egypt's right to self-determination, doesn't kill thousands of Egyptian civilians and try to blame it on "human shields",  and doesn't demands that Egypt not have a military for statehood.

And even if the settlements are going on in the West Bank rather than Gaza, they're still supposed to be the same country. During the Revolutionary War, the Boston Massacre still inflamed tensions throughout the colonies even though it took place in Boston. Should only Bostonians have reacted, and with a large British military presence in the city? Because Israel still exercises full military control and 61% of the civil control over the West Bank. Should only the affected part of a country react when an invasion/disaster strikes?

Attacks do occur from the West Bank, but with such heavily Israeli presence it becomes difficult to put up much resistance. In Gaza, they literally walled it off and let Escape from New York happen and put such restrictions on it as to create living hell. Then every other year or so, they "mow the lawn" by carrying out bombing runs and partial-invasions that results in hundreds and up to thousands of civilian casualties.

You seem to be under the impression that as soon as Israel withdrew from Gaza was when the blockade started.  That's not true.

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Yes, it is really stupid that Hamas keeps attacking with everybody knowing this.  And you may or may not know this, but Hamas also gets billions in aid (and uses it to build tunnels and rockets, not to fix their failing infrastructure) and sympathies from much of the global media network.

[dead0man]

I think dead0man is blissfully ignorant of the fact that Israel supported Hamas in the '90s to undermine the PLO, which hated Hamas.

And now they're paying for it, much as we had to pay after we supported those anti-communist "freedom fighters" in Afghanistan in the '80s only to see many of them turn their guns on us.

Except I am aware of it (you guys act like this is my first rodeo for some reason) and it's nowhere near as extensive as you are letting on....but that's ok as I suspect this is your first rodeo.

[dead0man]

Back on subject, I suspect both sides will accept this current ceasefire...here's why...
A.IDF is reporting that early on Hamas fought like banshees, in the last couple of days, they are turning tail and running, leaving sh**t behind.  Morale has plummeted.
2.the IDF claims to need another week to remove all the tunnels, Hamas doesn't want that.
III.Hamas leaders are claiming victory
e.Israel will be strong armed into taking it whether they want to or not

[dead0man]

The only way this can be screwed up at this point is by Hamas doing something insanely stupid - another kidnapping - that Israel can't ignore.

They do have a corpse (from the APC that got tagged on the second night), lets hope Israel doesn't make some crazy deal to get the body back.

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Probably only on the Israeli side though.  The IDF does need to figure out a way to find the tunnels, the tech there is lagging.

[dead0man]

Aye, I was just coming back here to post that.  Hopefully they can finish destroying the tunnels then.

[dead0man]

or Syria, or Iraq.

[dead0man]

Aye.  It's best to ignore Snow though.  There is no arguing with bigotry that deep.

[dead0man]

link (telegraph uk)

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Not sure how accurate it is, or how they expect to deliver the garbage, but there you go.

[dead0man]

I hope it happens to dead0man just to see his reaction. I am sure he will be very understanding.

I have no idea how'd react, but I can guarantee you one funking thing, my grand kids wouldn't still be "refugees" firing rockets across the Missouri River 70 years later.

[dead0man]

I'm tired of wasting my time answering your drive by's.  You don't discuss things, you make accusation posts and then flee only to come back several days later with more of the same.  Perhaps you should just stick to bullying Bushie.  You're much better at that.


PA not happy at all with Kerry

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