The Present Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Please do not post that idiot's comics here. We're above that.

In other news, the colonists continue to murder children en masse. And the Israeli left is being suppressed by an alliance of cops and brownshirts.

You know that I am far, far from being a Zionist, but this is absurd. These four children died because Hamas decided they would launch scores of rockets into Israel. The Israelis were right to retialiate. If Mexico decided to randomly launch rockets at America, I'd want to bomb the hell out of the border towns. These four children died because of Hamas.

That being said, why is Hamas launching rockets to begin with? That is a fair question, but the actions of Hamas are not justified by their cause.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Please do not post that idiot's comics here. We're above that.

In other news, the colonists continue to murder children en masse. And the Israeli left is being suppressed by an alliance of cops and brownshirts.

You know that I am far, far from being a Zionist, but this is absurd. These four children died because Hamas decided they would launch scores of rockets into Israel. The Israelis were right to retialiate. If Mexico decided to randomly launch rockets at America, I'd want to bomb the hell out of the border towns. These four children died because of Hamas.

That being said, why is Hamas launching rockets to begin with? That is a fair question, but the actions of Hamas are not justified by their cause.

What does that mean? People talk about "anti-Zionism" a fair amount but do they really think that the Israelis should just pack their bags and leave the country? I've asked this before, but do you really believe Israel should not exist because this is Palestinian land? How is that any different from what the Israelis (besides the 1300-year-odd difference between their "presence") did in claiming the land for themselves?

In hindsight, I think the Middle East would have been off if Israel was not established in the Holy Land, but now that they are established, they shouldn't be forced out. They have every right to fight for their land, and I commend them for doing it.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Please do not post that idiot's comics here. We're above that.

In other news, the colonists continue to murder children en masse. And the Israeli left is being suppressed by an alliance of cops and brownshirts.

You know that I am far, far from being a Zionist, but this is absurd. These four children died because Hamas decided they would launch scores of rockets into Israel. The Israelis were right to retialiate. If Mexico decided to randomly launch rockets at America, I'd want to bomb the hell out of the border towns. These four children died because of Hamas.

That being said, why is Hamas launching rockets to begin with? That is a fair question, but the actions of Hamas are not justified by their cause.

What does that mean? People talk about "anti-Zionism" a fair amount but do they really think that the Israelis should just pack their bags and leave the country? I've asked this before, but do you really believe Israel should not exist because this is Palestinian land? How is that any different from what the Israelis (besides the 1300-year-odd difference between their "presence") did in claiming the land for themselves?

In hindsight, I think the Middle East would have been off if Israel was not established in the Holy Land, but now that they are established, they shouldn't be forced out. They have every right to fight for their land, and I commend them for doing it.

But isn't that... Zionism? Had Mandatory Palestine become just another Arab Republic (Would it have, though?- all the British colonies in the Middle East were monarchies at independence) we wouldn't have all these issues surrounding Israel per se, yes. But I imagine any sort of Arab Republic/Hashemite Kingdom of Palestine would move very quickly to prohibit further immigration and at least attempt expelling Jews (or "recent settlers" as I'd imagine it'd be put) not long after. And of course there is the matter of what happens to the European Jews, who are not particularly inclined to remain where they are after what happened to them...

I wouldn't call my views Zionism. I'm not willing to die for Israel's existence, and if a miracle happens and they are overrun by the Arabs, I'd only be willing to support a humanitarian evacuation, not an invasion to restore the nation of Israel. They seem to be doing a good job holding their own anyway.

As for what would happen post World War II, I'd say that the current situation-the wars every three years with the Gaza Strip, the risk of a nuclear confrontation between Israel and her neighbors, the 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973 wars all outweigh the potential humanitarian situation between Jewish settlers and an independent Arab Palestine. But that is all in the past, and nothing can change the fact that Israel exists and has a right to defend themselves.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Isn't this the problem? People keep valuing the death of "their own" as more important. Let's reverse the situation. What if Mexico destroyed some US border towns because some Americans fired rockets at them? I'm sure the "minutemen" would probably escalate things and retaliate. Then Mexico retaliates. It just seems like this crisis is so human.

Of course people value the death of their own as more important. That is human nature. Should we not have responded to 9/11?

Now, if America is the aggressor, I'd oppose our future responses. Just like I have opposed American aggression in the past, most recently in Libya. In fact, the fixating I do on Benghazi is the fact that we had a presence in Benghazi to begin with, and that terrorism is in response to our presence in the Middle East.

Well it's not "some Mexicans", you see. It's the government of the Republic of Texas.

I don’t quite get what you are saying here. It seems your being contradictory, but maybe I just assumed you had certain political views and never heard your further commentary on the Israel-Palestine.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

This thread has been a fascinating exercise in the dropping of pretenses,

It really has.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Honestly, I can see what you mean by this too.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Well, er, let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Some European guy doesn't recognise that synagogues are besieged (by whom some frothing horde I guess) all over Europe, it's like a repeat of the Holocaust, we're all going to die unless we threaten to use the Samson Option against Europe (not like that lower other people's opinion of Israelis or their cause).

...and people wonder why most Europeans don't take American and israeli claims about Jews being persecuted in today's Europe seriously.

That's not what I'm saying. I think what Ray Goldfield is saying about the Samson Option is overdramatic and silly.

Well you're still saying that because I don't recognise that synagogues are besieged all over Europe, it some kind of act of anti-semitism, that's everybit as mindblowing ignorant.

You don't think it is anti-semitic to protest a synagogue instead of something more relevant, like say, the Israeli embassy?

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Israel's actions in the Gaza strip aren't surprising or shocking in the least. They have a clear cut casus belli and Hamas should be punished for its actions. That isn't why this particular conflict is so troubling: Netanyahu is using the threat of Hamas' tunnels as a justification for formally withdrawing his (misleading)  public support of a two state solution and this comes as a Naftali Bennet is pushing for a de facto annextion of the West Bank. Something is rotten in Israel.

I'm an "anti-Zionist" because I am concerned for Jews who have no interest in living in an Israel that treats them as gentile-loving traitors. Israel legitimizes anti-semitism as a valid worldview every time it defends its settlements. Every time it displays ultra-jingoistic behavior by bombing Gaza hospitals, imprisoning those who work for NGOs and bullying the US, it makes the world a much darker place for Jews.

I never, ever, ever thought I'd agree with you on something, but here I am.

Israel's actions in the Gaza strip aren't surprising or shocking in the least. They have a clear cut casus belli and Hamas should be punished for its actions. That isn't why this particular conflict is so troubling: Netanyahu is using the threat of Hamas' tunnels as a justification for formally withdrawing his (misleading)  public support of a two state solution and this comes as a Naftali Bennet is pushing for a de facto annextion of the West Bank. Something is rotten in Israel.

I'm an "anti-Zionist" because I am concerned for Jews who have no interest in living in an Israel that treats them as gentile-loving traitors.  Israel legitimizes anti-semitism as a valid worldview every time it defends its settlements. Every time it displays ultra-jingoistic behavior by bombing Gaza hospitals, imprisoning those who work for NGOs and bullying the US, it makes the world a much darker place for Jews.

So you consider anti-semitism a valid and legitimate lens through which to look at the world?  Wow...

I don't think he condones anti-semitism as much as he understands why anti-semitic reactions to Israel take place.