The Present Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread

[Simfan34]

I am making this thread for two reasons.

1) Dead0man is just running rampant over the other one.

2) Because this happens so often why bother making a new one every time? See below:



http://www.jjmccullough.com/index.php/2010/06/04/generic-israel-comic/

[Simfan34]

Please do not post that idiot's comics here. We're above that.

"That idiot?" I'm surprised you (people?) even know of him, he's hardly a "big" name. But you're quite wrong here, I've been following the comic for around a decade at this point I find him to be right on target with most things; not always, but most of the time. Then again, what you consider to be sensibility I imagine most others would call "utter madness", and vice versa.

I makes a pointed effort to avoid forming opinions on Israel-Palestine issues, if only because people get so emotionally invested in them to a level where I can't possibly keep up. Something like 30% of the population of my school, and 50% of the women's college across the street are Jews (and I'm not counting the Jewish college just north of here, either), and Palestine's been a cause celebre amongst the left since George Habash, and they are crawling all over this place, so they might as well be a lot of Palestinians here. And I have no desire to get into that mess. But I have a question or two, because I feel too ignorant at the moment.

1. It isn't entirely clear who started bombing whom. The Times makes it look like Israel started it as a response to the killing of the teenagers, when the BBC states flatly "Hamas claimed responsibility for firing rockets for the first time in 20 months" to which the Israelis responded with their campaign.

2. Israel is bombing Gaza as to cripple Hamas' ability to bomb them. But why is Hamas bombing Israel, anyway? What exactly is Hamas trying to hit? Or is Hamas really just firing randomly? Because they've apparently been hitting themselves a lot, so you would think they have a goal if they're going to mount such a costly campaign.

3. It is known/claimed that Hamas is storing its weapons in civilian areas and instructing people to disregard Israeli warnings that they are going to conduct strikes- apparently even the Israelis can even call people on their cell phones! You begin to get the idea Hamas doesn't really care that much about the lives of Gazans. Is this not true, then what is Israel trying to hit?

4. This is somewhat unrelated but I'll ask anyway- how does Israel justify building all these settlements in the West Bank? I understand why they would exist- there wasn't really any entity that could claim to be a sovereign Palestine until the Oslo Accords- but how can they still build new ones if they acknowledge that they areas they are being built in are Palestinian?

5. Israeli Arabs? How/why do they exist? How did they get citizenship in the first place as opposed to other Palestinians?

[Simfan34]

Please do not post that idiot's comics here. We're above that.

In other news, the colonists continue to murder children en masse. And the Israeli left is being suppressed by an alliance of cops and brownshirts.

You know that I am far, far from being a Zionist, but this is absurd. These four children died because Hamas decided they would launch scores of rockets into Israel. The Israelis were right to retialiate. If Mexico decided to randomly launch rockets at America, I'd want to bomb the hell out of the border towns. These four children died because of Hamas.

That being said, why is Hamas launching rockets to begin with? That is a fair question, but the actions of Hamas are not justified by their cause.

What does that mean? People talk about "anti-Zionism" a fair amount but do they really think that the Israelis should just pack their bags and leave the country? I've asked this before, but do you really believe Israel should not exist because this is Palestinian land? How is that any different from what the Israelis (besides the 1300-year-odd difference between their "presence") did in claiming the land for themselves?

[Simfan34]

Please do not post that idiot's comics here. We're above that.

In other news, the colonists continue to murder children en masse. And the Israeli left is being suppressed by an alliance of cops and brownshirts.

You know that I am far, far from being a Zionist, but this is absurd. These four children died because Hamas decided they would launch scores of rockets into Israel. The Israelis were right to retialiate. If Mexico decided to randomly launch rockets at America, I'd want to bomb the hell out of the border towns. These four children died because of Hamas.

That being said, why is Hamas launching rockets to begin with? That is a fair question, but the actions of Hamas are not justified by their cause.

What does that mean? People talk about "anti-Zionism" a fair amount but do they really think that the Israelis should just pack their bags and leave the country? I've asked this before, but do you really believe Israel should not exist because this is Palestinian land? How is that any different from what the Israelis (besides the 1300-year-odd difference between their "presence") did in claiming the land for themselves?

In hindsight, I think the Middle East would have been off if Israel was not established in the Holy Land, but now that they are established, they shouldn't be forced out. They have every right to fight for their land, and I commend them for doing it.

But isn't that... Zionism? Had Mandatory Palestine become just another Arab Republic (Would it have, though?- all the British colonies in the Middle East were monarchies at independence) we wouldn't have all these issues surrounding Israel per se, yes. But I imagine any sort of Arab Republic/Hashemite Kingdom of Palestine would move very quickly to prohibit further immigration and at least attempt expelling Jews (or "recent settlers" as I'd imagine it'd be put) not long after. And of course there is the matter of what happens to the European Jews, who are not particularly inclined to remain where they are after what happened to them...

[Simfan34]

Well it's not "some Mexicans", you see. It's the government of the Republic of Texas.

[Simfan34]

Well it's not "some Mexicans", you see. It's the government of the Republic of Texas.

I don’t quite get what you are saying here. It seems your being contradictory, but maybe I just assumed you had certain political views and never heard your further commentary on the Israel-Palestine.

That should have been "some Americans", not Mexicans.

The Palestinians never secured their borders. Look where they are now.

The only thing I get from this post is anti-Semitism.

[Simfan34]

My contribution is: I ABSOLUTELY HATE both sides of this "debate".

Simfan, make yourself a favour and block this piece of s***

Uh, what?

I might take his advice if you don't calm down. I mean, really.

[Simfan34]

My contribution is: I ABSOLUTELY HATE both sides of this "debate".

Simfan, make yourself a favour and block this piece of s***

Uh, what?

I might take his advice if you don't calm down. I mean, really.

What the hell are you talking about?

You're always so worked up about something. I mean, I largely agree with you but I just imagine you shouting all the time.

[Simfan34]

Vaguely interesting piece here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28371966

Indeed, very insightful.

[Simfan34]

The number of Israeli children killed vs. the number of Palestinian children killed:

I presume it's no less topical for me to bring up the fact that there have been many more Palestinians who could be considered war criminals than Israelis?

[Simfan34]

France's Jews Flee As Rioters Burn Paris Shops, Attack Synagogue

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/07/22/france-jewish-shops-riot_n_5608612.html

One must take care in calling such things "understandable".

[Simfan34]

As a whole or district-by-district?  Of course, the Maharajah wanted independence, but the Indians, as was also the case in Hyderabad, Manipur, and (eventually), Sikkim, were unwilling to accept this. One wonders how things would have been different had the majority of the  princely states opted for independence rather than ascension- perhaps if they had been able to foresee the abolition of their privileges.

But what does this have to do with Israel?!

[Simfan34]

The ceasefire game has started to get blackly funny.

Taking this whole thing as one big dark joke is perhaps the only way to stay sane and follow it.

[Simfan34]

What's the big deal? He's a POW.

I'll admit I don't get the point of this Gaza campaign anymore. They have the Iron Dome to protect them from the rockets, what's the utility of attacking Gaza, then? It only harms their standing further. Although I doubt it would change anyone's mind.

[Simfan34]

Funny that the Western media has pasted the capture of one of their guys as the top story while burying the continued mass civilian casualties under it.

Funny that certain people to overlook how 1,700 people have died in Syria in the past week. Like many murders in this country, killings of the dispossessed only seem to arouse their attention when "privileged" groups are doing the killing.

[Simfan34]

Funny that the Western media has pasted the capture of one of their guys as the top story while burying the continued mass civilian casualties under it.

Funny that certain people to overlook how 1,700 people have died in Syria in the past week. Like many murders in this country, killings of the dispossessed only seem to arouse their attention when "privileged" groups are doing the killing.

1. There is, as you mentioned, an enormous power disparity between Israel and Gaza; one side is almost entirely killing soldiers while the other is primarily killing civilians; Assad and the rebels (who are now almost entirely Islamists; the moderates we were backing are more or less dead) have been slaughtering each other as well as many civilians. And in Israel, human interest stories like cats and owls that were hit by rockets get more traffic than articles about the slaughter in Gaza.

What side would that be?

[Simfan34]

Why Americans See Israel the Way They Do

You must be logged in to read this quote.

It thought this piece in yesterday's Times was rather balanced.

[Simfan34]

Your trolling is low-grade. What's wrong with a Koran?

[Simfan34]

The flip side of that question is, when a militarized Palestinian state with a Hamas-led government fires the first rocket that kills an Israeli civilian, and Israel considers it an act of war from a neighboring state and sends in the troops, what will people say?

So because of that hypothetical, only one of the two proposed states should be allowed to have the ability to defend itself?

The point is moot anyway. It's all but certain that Israel will annex Judea and Samaria and either expel or exterminate the excess undesirables. Gaza will stay how it is for a while longer--Hamas is a fantastic propaganda tool for the Israelis.

The ongoing fever dream of impending Israeli genocide continues. It'll continue until people decide that it's time to do something about those pesky Israelis before they commit that genocide that never seems to come.

Israeli leaders have pretty much rejected all pretenses of supporting even a two-state solution at this point. I'm right, just wait for it.

It's basically shouting fire into a crowded theater, except it's really more shouting "That guy's going to start a fire! Get him!"

What's wrong with that? Someone in the Israeli government right now has to face the hangman.

Throw the Jew down the well.

[Simfan34]

"only" half

[Simfan34]

I think it would be for the best if everyone pretended that that monumentally moronic post of Snowstalker's had never been. He's just trying to cause a scene because he's a bit of a cock sometimes.

I will say his point about the Holocaust doing little to affect popular attitudes towards gays and the Romani was rather observant, but not in a way that gave any credence to his babblings...

[Simfan34]

Also in the news...

George Galloway declares Bradford ‘an Israel-free zone’

You must be logged in to read this quote.

[Simfan34]

Interesting how the article dances around what that might mean. Good journalism.

[Simfan34]

Truce extended for 5 more days.

[Simfan34]

Who is this?