The Present Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread

[ingemann]

My contribution is: I ABSOLUTELY HATE both sides of this "debate".

I can only agree. I was rampant pro-Israel while I was high school and while I read at my old university. The primary reason for this was how much I despised the pro-Palestinian side, their arguments and their general obnoxiousness. But some year later, at the moment when the Lebanon invasion happened, I lost any respect I had for Israel, which lead me look more objective on the settlements, and since then no matter how much I think the Palestinians are a bunch of morons, I have come to the conclusion, that Tel Aviv not Ramallah are the primary reason that we don't see a peace today.
 

[ingemann]

My contribution is: I ABSOLUTELY HATE both sides of this "debate".

I can only agree. I was rampant pro-Israel while I was high school and while I read at my old university. The primary reason for this was how much I despised the pro-Palestinian side, their arguments and their general obnoxiousness. But some year later, at the moment when the Lebanon invasion happened, I lost any respect I had for Israel, which lead me look more objective on the settlements, and since then no matter how much I think the Palestinians are a bunch of morons, I have come to the conclusion, that Tel Aviv not Ramallah are the primary reason that we don't see a peace today.

I actually had a pretty similar evolution - actually, I still kinda defended Israel during the invasion of Lebanon and even the Gaza one. What really cut it for me was the continued colonization process, since there it just can't be defended under any rationale based on Israel's safety, and just prove the government doesn't give a sh*t about peace.

From what I have experience it's not a that uncommon development.

I think the primary reason are that after the Oslo Accords, it have become obvious that Israel doesn't want peace, at least not a peace which demand that they should give anything up.

Also in my experience there are four kind of "pro-Palestinians" outside Muslims.

1: The obnoxious left, the people for whom this is another cause celebre. Yes they're right but they also happen to be really really irritated, and they don't seem to used a single brain cell to decide why they support the palestinians. Also they're not necessary lefties, but usual they are.
2: The changing middle, these people have to some degree been pro-Israel or at least neutral toward the conflict, but Israel's behaviour have gotten them to lose their respect for Israel, and especially the settlements piss them off.
3: The irritated right, these people don't have any big problem with Israel's general behaviour, they care nothing for Palestinians, but some points of Israel's behaviour irritate or rub them the wrong way them, and the Israeli attitude of "my way or the highway" have made these people choose the highway.

4: The anti-semitic unicorns, some people says these people exist, sometimes even the media says these people exist. But honestly most anti-semites don't seem to have a big problem with Israel murdering Arabs.

[ingemann]

Indeed.  Hopefully this is the end of Hamas and peace can have a slim chance again.

Nope.  Even if Hamas is destroyed, another organization will rise to take its place.  Israeli hopes of a making the Palestinians into modern day servile Gibeonites are hopeless.  For there to be any chance of peace, Israel will need to give up its aspirations to keep the Palestinians continually under an Israeli yoke.  Not that doing so has much chance of peace either, but even a slim chance is higher than no chance.  I said higher rather than better because whether it is better depends upon how much risk one thinks Israel would take under either course.

Did I sound in my description of them like I wouldn't call them anti-semitic, if I saw them as it. Of course I just live in the same country as these people and have meet pro-Palestinian socialist from all over Europe in person, so what do I know.

[ingemann]

4: To the extent that these unicorns are out there, they're going to be found in the Islamist strain of Islam and in number 3 above.

AND it's quite prevalent on the left, especially the European left and others lefties that wish they were European leftists.  I don't know why you guys keep ignoring those specific racists.

I think there's a lot more racism from the ones who are bulldozing away entire villages to establish settlements while. Zionism is, fundamentally, racism. But for several reasons, the American media is afraid to point out this obvious fact. The amount of influence this little state has on the independent media and foreign policies of the majority of NATO is insane.

Jews and their houses of worship are being laid siege to all across Europe in "retaliation". If you're not concerned with that, then you are the problem.

I can not even take the argument seriously.

Let's take a bet about the murder rate of Jews are higher in Israel than in Europe the last ten years, even if we count anti-Jewish terrorism in Europe and not in Israel.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Clearly it's racism that you're not allowed to ethnic cleanse native people and forcing the survivors into large ghetthos cut off from the wider world, which you regulary terrorise.

[ingemann]

"Jews are being targeted all across Europe"

"*world's smallest violin image*"

This thread has been a fascinating exercise in the dropping of pretenses, as well as a wonderful justification of Israel's existence and its nuclear program.

How many Jews have been killed the last 10 years in Europe, I'm going to guess with your great knowledge about Europe you can answer that.

As for nuclear arms, I don't care one way or another, the whole Samson Option is a empty threat, quite useful as one, but still empty.

[ingemann]

This thread has been a fascinating exercise in the dropping of pretenses,

It really has.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Honestly, I can see what you mean by this too.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Well, er, let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Some European guy doesn't recognise that synagogues are besieged (by whom some frothing horde I guess) all over Europe, it's like a repeat of the Holocaust, we're all going to die unless we threaten to use the Samson Option against Europe (not like that lower other people's opinion of Israelis or their cause).

...and people wonder why most Europeans don't take American and israeli claims about Jews being persecuted in today's Europe seriously.

[ingemann]

"Jews are being targeted all across Europe"

"*world's smallest violin image*"

This thread has been a fascinating exercise in the dropping of pretenses, as well as a wonderful justification of Israel's existence and its nuclear program.

How many Jews have been killed the last 10 years in Europe, I'm going to guess with your great knowledge about Europe you can answer that.

As for nuclear arms, I don't care one way or another, the whole Samson Option is a empty threat, quite useful as one, but still empty.

How many will it take for you to care?

Well I care about every person killed in the world and think that one person are one too many. So if it's more than zero I care. The question you should ask instead how would it take, for me to think that you're not just a bigot filled with hot air and a persecution complex the size of a middle sized country.

[ingemann]

This thread has been a fascinating exercise in the dropping of pretenses,

It really has.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Honestly, I can see what you mean by this too.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Well, er, let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Some European guy doesn't recognise that synagogues are besieged (by whom some frothing horde I guess) all over Europe, it's like a repeat of the Holocaust, we're all going to die unless we threaten to use the Samson Option against Europe (not like that lower other people's opinion of Israelis or their cause).

...and people wonder why most Europeans don't take American and israeli claims about Jews being persecuted in today's Europe seriously.

That's not what I'm saying. I think what Ray Goldfield is saying about the Samson Option is overdramatic and silly.

Well you're still saying that because I don't recognise that synagogues are besieged all over Europe, it some kind of act of anti-semitism, that's everybit as mindblowing ignorant.

[ingemann]

I've just come back from Cardiff and walked past a pro-Palestinian demonstration on my way back to Central station. The chant of the c. 300 crowd went as follows:

"Free, Free, Palestine! From the river to the sea! Palestine!"

I'll let you draw what ever conclusions you want to from that.

So was it non-Muslim demonstrators who chanted it?

Because this was the picture I could find

[ingemann]

I couldn't tell whether there they were Muslims or not; it's kind of hard to tell that sort of thing without asking and I wasn't asking.

It must be glorious to live in such a post racial world, when you can not even look at a group of people and make a educated guess whether these people are Britons of native origin or of Middle Eastern or Asian (as the term are used in Britain) origin.

[ingemann]

It must be glorious to live in such a post racial world, when you can not even look at a group of people and make a educated guess whether these people are Britons of native origin or of Middle Eastern or Asian (as the term are used in Britain) origin.

Middle Eastern or Asian doesn't equal Muslim... it can just as easily equal Hindu, Sikh or Jew. Also, here's another headscarf wearer.

Because there are a lot of Hindus, Jews and Sikhs who take part in such demonstrations and want to destroy Israel....

[ingemann]

Do we really need to say it...

No, Non-Israeli Jews or synagogues are not acceptable targets not even for peaceful demonstration, as they have no direct influence on Israeli policy. Israeli abroad are not legitimate targets either for violent acts and even in Israel/Palestinia, it's not legitimate to go after Israeli civilians as targets either (collatoral damage can be discussed).

Even if we only see it from a purely pragmatic POV and not a moral one, the lesson from the Second Intifada and the Israeli invasions and bombings of Gaza, the killing of civilians have not resulted in breaking either sides will to fight.

[ingemann]

The Iron Dome, which was built with US taxpayer dollars, really encourages Israel to take a hardline and not negotiate.

Not really, since it has been well over a decade since Israel has done any serious negotiations with the Palestinians. But that's because they've realized that even if they do manage to browbeat the Chiefs into signing away Palestinian land and accept a few beads in exchange for living on a reservation, the Braves will go on the warpath anyway and refuse to accept the injustice done them.

I love this comparison, I usual use Bantustans and East European Jewish ghettos as comparison, but this one was pure poetry.

[ingemann]

Oh sh!t.

I think it was really to expected, the operation is expensive for Israel so the faster they can end it, the better for them. While Hamas have a interest in Israel continuing their killing of Palestinian civilians, as it's their only way to get USA (and to lesser extent Europe) to pressure Israel to make a ceasefire, which include an end to the blockade of Gaza. The question are how many Palestinian civilians need to die, before it become unacceptable in USA and Europe.

[ingemann]

http://www.mediaite.com/online/whoa-times-of-israel-op-ed-advocates-genocide-against-gazans/

One could try a nuanced response to your s**t, but why bother with rampant anti-semitism? Instead: given Hamas' clear intention is to drive the only Jewish state in the world 'into the sea' - f**k it, turnabout's fair play and all that.

Seeing that a important pro-Israel talking point are that Palestinians don't even exist and how often driving the Palestinians over the river Jordan and/or into the Sinai desert, I don't think that the pro-Israel side have the moral high ground on that point.

[ingemann]

Japan is not a sovereign nation?

JSDF may not be called an army, but I doubt we could find 10 or even 5 militaries in the world which could beat it. So it's an army in all but name.

[ingemann]

I don't know why Israel would be so bothered by a militarized Palestine when they're already surrounded by several militarized countries that have attacked them in the past and didn't have any trouble repelling them. A Palestinian military that is an organ of the state is far less likely to do something as inflammatory as attack Israel than a non-state militia like Hamas is. And if Israel doesn't allow Palestine to have a full-fledged military, Hamas is going to fill that void just as it does now. And the Palestinian government will have no more ability to control the actions of those militias than they do now.

They had plenty of trouble in 1973. If you look at their neighbours, they have peace treaties with Egypt and Jordan, Lebanon doesn't rate as a military and Syria is in the midst of a civil war.

Yes and the Syrian border have always been the one peaceful border Israel had.

[ingemann]

Yeah, I may be missing something but while it was expressed a tad awkwardly (as is his wont) I don't see anything particularly offensive or inaccurate in that Snowstalker post.

Yes in this thread it sometimes feel like Snowstalker write two thing, and I only see the reasonable version, while some other posters see a post, where he support the Holocaust.

[ingemann]

There has been an "undeclared" ceasefire agreed upon while talks continue.

Hamas has agreed to let the idea of a seaport go in the truce talks if they can get the PA to monitor the border with Egypt.  Not sure why they think that would be any better, as neither PA nor Egypt desires a re-armed Hamas and pals.  Might be easier to bribe a PA border guard than it would one that was a member of the IDF or the Egyptian Army I guess.

Also, if their (Hamas) demands are not met by Sunday they are going to attack Tel Aviv.  Whatever that means.

Are you so ideological blinded, that you don't get that the major reason that Hamas want the blockade to end, is to be able to develop Gaza, right now the import of cement are limited by Israel at a point, where they need not only to rebuild after the Israel bombing and bombardment of them, but they also need to deal with growing population. Beside that Gaza suffer from chronic lack of energy, which mean that they suffer from daily power outs, and an end to the blockade would also mean that Gazans could work abroad, which would bring much needed capital into Gaza. also at last and not least it would allow Gaza to develop Gaza commercial.

But of course the Israeli government don't want that for reason unknown to the rest of humanity, but if I was into conspiracies, I would say that they don't want it, because in that case they would risk peace, which would make the Israeli people vote for other issues, which could mean an end to their strong position they have had the last 20 years.

[ingemann]

There has been an "undeclared" ceasefire agreed upon while talks continue.

Hamas has agreed to let the idea of a seaport go in the truce talks if they can get the PA to monitor the border with Egypt.  Not sure why they think that would be any better, as neither PA nor Egypt desires a re-armed Hamas and pals.  Might be easier to bribe a PA border guard than it would one that was a member of the IDF or the Egyptian Army I guess.

Also, if their (Hamas) demands are not met by Sunday they are going to attack Tel Aviv.  Whatever that means.

Are you so ideological blinded, that you don't get that the major reason that Hamas want the blockade to end, is to be able to develop Gaza, right now the import of cement are limited by Israel at a point, where they need not only to rebuild after the Israel bombing and bombardment of them, but they also need to deal with growing population. Beside that Gaza suffer from chronic lack of energy, which mean that they suffer from daily power outs, and an end to the blockade would also mean that Gazans could work abroad, which would bring much needed capital into Gaza. also at last and not least it would allow Gaza to develop Gaza commercial.

If only that were true.  Hamas has spent many MILLIONS of dollars, using child slave labor, to build tunnels to murder civilians.  If they wanted to improve Gaza they could use that money to make things better instead of trying to murder.  The concrete they do get in doesn't go into fixing sh**t, no it, like their children, go into the tunnels.  I can't understand how ideologically blind a person must be to ignore the evidence.

If Gaza grows up and stops the violence and Israel maintains the blockade, I'll be next to you at the rallies against them.

No you won't, you will make a new goal they need to reach and a new one after that.

[ingemann]

Why would Israel keep the blockade in effect if they were no longer threatened from Gaza? If Israel were interested in keeping Gaza it wouldn't have dismantled settlements there.

To keep Gaza as a threat allow Israel to expand their settlement on the West Bank on the argument that the Palestinians doesn't cooperate. If the Israeli government really cared about peace, they would not continue sabotage the negotiation with Fatah by keep building settlements.

They don't want peace and they're willing to find the excuse for the Palestinians being the aggressors, and we have some people in the West who are willing to asccept those excuses no matter how stupid the excuses are.

[ingemann]

Of course, had the Palestinians adopted Gandhi/MLK tactics they could have won 30 years ago.

Really, all they had to do was take the Camp David offer. The problem is, Arafat knew he would be assassinated by Hamas if he did.

Yes all they need to do was to voluntary bend over, and when Israel would use lube when they raped them.