The Present Israel-Palestine Conflict Thread

[Velasco]

My contribution is: I ABSOLUTELY HATE both sides of this "debate".

Simfan, make yourself a favour and block this piece of s***

[Velasco]

Sorry, Antonio. I quoted your post because I agree, basically. It looks like I said the contrary, how foolish of me.

 

[Velasco]

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/mehdi-hasan/gaza-israel_b_5624401.html

(apologize for Huffington Post)

Dahiya doctrine?

Aside it debunks the Israel government's propaganda or not (which claims become increasingly indefensible), the article has some interesting links. For example, a quite understandavle article by Nathan Trall in the NYT (should I apologise for linking that agent of zionist imperialism?).

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/18/opinion/gaza-and-israel-the-road-to-war-paved-by-the-west.html?_r=1

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[Velasco]

I don't think that's an honest assessment of the unity government. Fatah is not in THAT strong of a position. Hamas still regularly out polls them.

I'm afraid you didn't get the point. Hamas is not weak because Fatah is in a strong position, far from it. The article explains that the unity government "was created largely because Hamas' desperation and isolation" (underlined), which is due to an unfavourable international context and has little to do with election polls. Anyway, if we were before the contingency of an election, the Israeli and Egyptian governments and the so-called 'international community' would be campaigning for Hamas. Quoting the article again:

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120 dead yesterday (1150 since the beginning, 3/4 civilians, 215 children); the only power station destroyed in Gaza. Meanwhile, Kerry states "concern" again. It's a wonderful world.

[Velasco]

He just said that any Palestinian state would have to be demilitarized. He's always said that.

He said “I think the Israeli people understand now what I always say: that there cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan” and later  said that "at present we have a problem with the territory called Gaza,” noting that the West Bank is 20 times the size of Gaza, and vowed that he was not prepared “to create another 20 Gazas” in the West Bank.

He's just saying that there cannot be a situation in which the IDF withdraws the West Bank. As usual, Hamas is the alibi to continue the occupation in the territories under Abbas' 'authority' while settlements expand gradually. Status quo. No more and no less.

[Velasco]

*it is good to have some people on the other side acknowledge that Hamas are, in fact, horrible people....some over there like to freak out when I say "bad guy" as if Hamas isn't full of racist asshole murderers.

It'd be fantastic if some people on the 'another side' was admitting that the guy who orders indiscriminate retaliatory attacks which cause thousands of civil casualties is very very bad. I know that's asking too much, 0 straw man.

[Velasco]

*it is good to have some people on the other side acknowledge that Hamas are, in fact, horrible people....some over there like to freak out when I say "bad guy" as if Hamas isn't full of racist asshole murderers.

It'd be fantastic if some people on the 'another side' was admitting that the guy who orders indiscriminate retaliatory attacks which cause thousands of civil casualties is very very bad. I know that's asking too much, 0 straw man.

and people that pay so little attention that they think the retaliatory strikes are indiscriminate aren't really worth listening to, <insert lame insult here>.

Admittedly, I didn't pay attention to most of your posts on here, but FTR I've read the other day some article you linked from The Times of Israel. The best thing that I can say is "internal consumption propaganda", which has little to do with what's reporting various international media and other people on the ground. Feel free to continue posting on "good" and "bad guys", although the result will be more or less what ag has told you. Also, not everybody on "the other side" is in honeymoon with Hamas. It's just another straw man that Likudnik propaganda likes to raise from time to time. And yes, there's a huge problem of perception in certain self-perceived 'side'. I have several FB contacts who are Jewish in the diaspora -mostly from Argentina- and the story is always the same: "The World Is Against Us". On the other hand, some Jewish people around the world -and even in Israel- say that retaliations are not executed in their names. Maybe there are more 'sides' involved in this conflict than you can imagine.

[Velasco]

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Obviously, and I've never even hinted at anything otherwise.  I don't know why this keeps coming up.
(...)
There is a word for arguments like that, any idea what it is?

When you post things like that, you are speaking for yourself:

it is good to have some people on the other side acknowledge that Hamas are, in fact, horrible people....

And certainly not in my name.

I'm ready to acknowledge how bad guys are Hamaskins, Likudniks, Aztecs and awfully bearded conquistadores, but that doesn't mean that they play in the same league. Every bunch has a proper context and a proper way to be described. And, of course, they have different means at their disposal.

[Velasco]

In terms of civilian deaths and level of violation of international law and the laws of war, Israel is objectively far worse than Hamas.

I wouldn't go quite that far.  Unlike Hamas, Israel has made some efforts to mitigate the effects of what they do, just not enough to actually prevent killing more civilians than is justified under the circumstances.

The whole discussion seems irrelevant. Given the outcome, arguably Israel's "efforts to mitigate what they do" are likely (unsuccessful) attempts to keep up appearances. On the other hand, it's hard to deny that Hamas targets civilians, although the attempts are largely unsuccessful. However, it's true that Hamas made concessions (albeit forced by the circumstances) to join the Palestinian unity government, which the Israeli government seeks to undermine. Ultimately, I have to agree with Snowstalker on a single point: outcome matters more than intents from both sides.