Can women be firemen or mailmen?

[Simfan34]

Or can they only be firefighters or mailpersons?

More seriously, I'm asking about gender-neutral pronouns. I've always thought the idea of the suffix "-man" being considered gendered to be a bit of an imposition. I mean, "mankind" is very clearly in reference to all people, not just men. So I'm of the opinion that women can be chairmen. Because chairperson... well it's all a bit silly. Because, you know, some men are women.



Seriously, though, it almost seems a forced sexism. This is a good quote:

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There's some good thoughts on this page as well.

http://www.dailywritingtips.com/mankind-humankind-and-gender/

I'm not a linguist, and this all seems very dangerous (as if it were a black hole), but I guess I have feelings on it. I suppose this is what happens when you find that the Wikipedia page for "Chairman of the Federal Reserve" has become the inelegant "Chair of the Federal Reserve".

[TNF]

Women can be anything that they want to be.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Women can be anything that they want to be.

The question is about linguistics, not gender roles, but I think this is still the right answer: Call any given woman in one of these types of positions what she'd prefer to be called, if she expresses a preference.

[Simfan34]

Women can be anything that they want to be.

The question is about linguistics, not gender roles, but I think this is still the right answer: Call any given woman in one of these types of positions what she'd prefer to be called, if she expresses a preference.

I mean if a woman calls herself a "poetess" then I suppose I would go along but I'm speaking in general terms. And we are trying to get to of the essence of the word- practice would follow convention, that is, a woman might elect to call herself a "chairperson" because she believe the word "chairman" to be gendered- but would that be correct?

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Women can be anything that they want to be.

The question is about linguistics, not gender roles, but I think this is still the right answer: Call any given woman in one of these types of positions what she'd prefer to be called, if she expresses a preference.

I mean if a woman calls herself a "poetess" then I suppose I would go along but I'm speaking in general terms. And we are trying to get to of the essence of the word- practice would follow convention, that is, a woman might elect to call herself a "chairperson" because she believe the word "chairman" to be gendered- but would that be correct?

My first instinct would be to say no, that would not in my view be correct, but I'm not enough of a prescriptivist to be particularly concerned over it.

[DemPGH]

To me it comes down to whether or not it's necessary to make a distinction. "Actor in a lead role" and "Actress in a lead role" is kind of a necessary distinction. Congresspeople, however, would seem to be preferable to Congressmen as an umbrella term since there are women in Congress.

I'd probably say "poets" unless it was necessary to differentiate between a female and male poet. 

[bedstuy]

Are there female firefighters?  I never heard of such a thing.

But, I think the easiest default is to use things like firefighter or mail carrier, if there's a good non-gendered word.  If there's a good gendered word like sculptress, executrix or chairman that has a nice ring to it, go with that.  For the female chairman, I think we're just stuck with awkward, bad sounding words.  Chairlady, chairwoman, chair, chairperson, all sound terrible. 

[user12345]

Are there female firefighters?  I never heard of such a thing. 

In 2002, 2% of firefighters were woman.

[ElectionsGuy]

Well of course, we could just call them mailwomen or firewomen, that would sound weird though.

[angus]

Or can they only be firefighters or mailpersons?

Firefighters exist, and some of them are women.  Mailpersons do not exist.  The National Association of Letter Carriers (NALC) has long preferred the usage of "letter carrier" over mailman or postman.  Some letter carriers are also women.

[Simfan34]

Are there female firefighters?  I never heard of such a thing.

But, I think the easiest default is to use things like firefighter or mail carrier, if there's a good non-gendered word.  If there's a good gendered word like sculptress, executrix or chairman that has a nice ring to it, go with that.  For the female chairman, I think we're just stuck with awkward, bad sounding words.  Chairlady, chairwoman, chair, chairperson, all sound terrible.  

But that doesn't really answer the question here-- is "chairman" gendered? If it isn't, then alternate gender-neutral or gender-specific terms become a matter of preference rather than necessity.

But I do agree that while it's entirely subjective, I'm not going to be raising hackles or asking questions about perfectly fine words like "firefighters" or "police officers". It's inelegant words like "alderperson" or "chairwoman" that make me wonder "are we supposed to be doing this?" in the first place.

To be fair the usage of certain gendered nouns is completely arbitrary. What logical reason is there for us to use words like stewardess, actress, or waitress but not doctress, professoress, or poetess, all of which are actual words? So we are trying to determine logic in an already illogical system. Already I wonder how linguists are able to stay sane.

As for the example of "congressman" (which seems pretty inelegant as-is), I suppose the distinction is made in terms of concurrent number. I mean, there would be only be the Chairman of X at a given time but there are hundreds of members of Congress at any given time. While it might be technically correct, if we are to consider "-man" gender-neutral (but always, also?), to refer to a mixed group of members of Congress of as "these fine Congressmen", it seems strange.

Of course, this could be avoided simply by calling them "Representatives", but it raises an interesting question. Is it appropriate, for example, to have a "Conference of Chairmen of Foreign Affairs Committees of Parliaments of the European Union". Or should it be a conference of Chairpeople, even if it is correct to call a woman "chairman".

Or can they only be firefighters or mailpersons?

Firefighters exist, and some of them are women.  Mailpersons do not exist.  The National Association of Letter Carriers (NALC) has long preferred the usage of "letter carrier" over mailman or postman.  Some letter carriers are also women.

Well, I've never actually used or even heard the term "letter carrier" in daily speech, I've always referred to the person who brings the mail as a "mailman", this despite for several years, the person who did that was a woman- I, and everyone else in the family, referred to her as "the mailman". Now that I think of it, "letter carrier" is a rather unpleasant and and de-personalising term.

[angus]

But that doesn't really answer the question here-- is "chairman" gendered?

I've worked for female department chairs who are regularly called chairman.  No one seems to mind.  I've also heard the word "chair" used, as in "She's our department chair..."  I'm okay with you calling a firefighter a fireman or a letter carrier a mailman, no matter the gender, although the preferred terms are firefighter and letter carrier.  I don't think anyone would take you seriously if you said mailperson though, since it isn't a word.

I also am okay with saying "yes, sir" to female starship officers or calling female starship officers Mister, as in "Mister Uhura."  However, when applied to a Potato Head toy, I think Mister specifically refers to a male.  Thus the need for a Mrs. Potato Head toy.  Her exaggerated lips and large brown posterior are both sufficiently racist and sexist that people don't even have time to notice that she is called by the very patronizing and old-fashioned "Mrs."

[Simfan34]

But only starship officers, am I correct?

(I am going to assume that in Star Trek women can be called "Mister" and "Sir", or something like that.)

[angus]

I never took martial arts and I was never in the military, so I don't have a large view on this.  At my son's Tae Kwon Do class the master is called "Sir."  They're big on that.  Bowing, sirring, all that deferential Eastern stuff.  The master's minions (other black belts who assist him) are also called Sir, or, in the case of the one who is a female, Ma'am.  They're instructed to say "Yes, sir!" to the men and "Yes, maam!" to the women. 

When Neil Armstrong said "That’s one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind" I think it was okay for the women in the audience as well.  I shouldn't read too much into any of this.

A college freshman is still a college freshman, no matter whether it's a boy, a girl, a boy trapped in a girl's body, a girl trapped a boy's body, or Nathan. 

Don't get too hung up on this.  Also, don't say "chairpeople" because it'll just make you look stupid.

[DemPGH]

Chairman is gendered, yes. I have never in any setting seen a woman referred to as a chairman, always a "chair."

Mail man is gendered. It's mail carrier.

Stewardess is gendered. It's flight attendant. And so on.

Not that any of this will actually get you in trouble (in the military it might - I believe women in most branches are referred to as Ma'am). It's just that the direction is toward neutral pronouns, unless, again, it's necessary to make a distinction.

[muon2]

I actually like the title "Chair". I don't find it inelegant, in fact for me it matches the proper usage in a sentence like "Chris chairs the Transportation Committee." I find it natural to flip it to "Chris is the chair of the Transportation Committee." I can use either sentence depending on the context I seek.

[angus]

relevant:  PBS Newshour anchor--notice how I said anchor?--Gwen Ifill just referred to Janet Yellen as "Federal Reserve Chairwoman Janet Yellen..."

Are you chillin?  gellin?  Magellen?  Janet Yellen?

Yeah, it's yesterday's program.  I watch it on line at newshour.pbs.org whenever I can. 

Anyway, details at eleven.

[traininthedistance]

As for the example of "congressman" (which seems pretty inelegant as-is), I suppose the distinction is made in terms of concurrent number. I mean, there would be only be the Chairman of X at a given time but there are hundreds of members of Congress at any given time. While it might be technically correct, if we are to consider "-man" gender-neutral (but always, also?), to refer to a mixed group of members of Congress of as "these fine Congressmen", it seems strange.

Of course, this could be avoided simply by calling them "Representatives", but it raises an interesting question. Is it appropriate, for example, to have a "Conference of Chairmen of Foreign Affairs Committees of Parliaments of the European Union". Or should it be a conference of Chairpeople, even if it is correct to call a woman "chairman".

I believe the preferred usage is "congresscritter".

[Marokai Backbeat]

Women can be anything that they want to be.

The question is about linguistics, not gender roles, but I think this is still the right answer: Call any given woman in one of these types of positions what she'd prefer to be called, if she expresses a preference.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Chairman is gendered, yes. I have never in any setting seen a woman referred to as a chairman, always a "chair."

I'm pretty sure Barbara Mikulski prefers 'Chairman'.

[Simfan34]

Chairman is gendered, yes. I have never in any setting seen a woman referred to as a chairman, always a "chair."

I have seen a few instances. Arundhati Bhattacharya Chairman of the Board of Directors of the Central Bank of India, Catherine Marron was Chairman of the Board Trustees of the New York Public Library, and Roberts Rules' instructs that a woman chair of a body be referred to as "Madam Chairman".

The main question here is whether "man" can be a gender neutral term.

[angus]

The main question here is whether "man" can be a gender neutral term.

From Mirriam-Webster:  a bipedal primate mammal of the genus Homo that is anatomically related to the great apes (family Pongidae) but is distinguished by greater development of the brain with resulting capacity for articulate speech and abstract reasoning, by marked erectness of body carriage with corresponding alteration of muscular balance and loss of prehensile powers of the foot, and by shortening of the arm with accompanying increase in thumb size and ability to place the thumb next to each of the fingers, that is usually considered to occur in a variable number of freely interbreeding races, and that is the sole living representative of the family Hominidae; broadly : any living or extinct member of the family Hominidae

Also, consider the etymology:  Old English man, mann "human being, person (male or female); brave man, hero; servant, vassal," from Proto-Germanic *manwaz (cognates: Old Saxon, Swedish, Dutch, Old High German man, German Mann, Old Norse maðr, Danish mand, Gothic manna "man"), from PIE root *man- (1) "man" (cognates: Sanskrit manu "mankind")

Overall, it seems so.  Also, it seems that we've made one giant fucking leap in this thread. 

[Gustaf]

In languages like German and Swedish the word for human is more obviously related to the word for man which makes it a bit easier to accept this stuff (mensch/mann/männer, etc)

[H. Ross Peron]

To me man is the generic for a human of either gender for the same reason "ils" is used in French to represent groups of mixed gender, especially if one wants to avoid awkward constructions such as "chairperson".

[Indy Texas]

To me it comes down to whether or not it's necessary to make a distinction. "Actor in a lead role" and "Actress in a lead role" is kind of a necessary distinction. Congresspeople, however, would seem to be preferable to Congressmen as an umbrella term since there are women in Congress.

I'd probably say "poets" unless it was necessary to differentiate between a female and male poet. 

I would prefer we refer to them as Member(s) of Congress, or M.C. for short.