Malaysian Airlines 777 shot down over Ukraine, 295 people on board.

[Simfan34]

The news is converging. Perhaps a sign of End Times?

Perhaps. I was frozen with shock for a good minute and a half, all but maybe ten seconds of those had to do with the airline. Reminds me of American Airlines Flight 587 back in 2001. I mean, it's a complete tragedy, but you've got to feel sorry for the Malaysians. What terrible luck. This is worse than Lockerbie, indeed, I'm wondering what it isn't worse than.

But the conspiracies are going to be all over the place. Particularly considering the Israelis have invaded Gaza in the meanwhile. Today is certainly in the bottom 1% of days in human history, if nothing else.

[Simfan34]

I'm not the only one whose first thought was "this is an incomprehensibly terrible joke by [whoever's telling me this] and I'm not going to interact with them ever again," am I? Now, I was "informed" of this by the BBC News webpage so obviously the idea that the BBC would be playing a "joke" like this is highly improbable... but the thought that a Malaysia Airlines 777 would be crashing, again, anytime in the distant future, much less now, was so utterly implausible as to render the other thought relatively believable. A rather specific reaction, but I've had three people tell me already they thought that the person who told them of this or the site they saw it on was playing some kind of sick joke.

I mean, what? Apparently, also RIA Novosti is reporting (as of 11 AM) that militiamen shot down a "Ukrainian An-26". I don't know what that is (as in whether or not it was really an An-26 or this plane). I mean I think it seems pretty certain. ITAR-TASS says- actually, let me post it in its entirety, because this is ITAR-TASS and Putin is currently claiming that this is Ukraine's fault.

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(feel free to infract)

The BBC and everyone else seem to be saying that the 777 was shot down near the town of Hrabove/Grabovo... which is about 10km from Torez. Now, unless we are to assume two planes were shot down within hours of each other, 10km apart... but we've already thrown probability out of the window, haven't we?

[Simfan34]

Simfan, the separatists thought they downed another Ukrainian military cargo plane and started spreading the word.  Once on scene they  realized they ed up and started backpedaling.

Horrible crash site scenes...real ugly. RIP to all.

That's what it looks like. I'm surprised the Russian articles haven't been deleted yet. Anyway, the Independent notes that the passengers are as follows:

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The separate mention of Americans is odd, but let us be honest- if there are 23 Americans this changes things quite a bit more than they would otherwise.

[Simfan34]

This apparently exists. I mean there's an actual facebook account and everything that clearly isn't made up. I guess I the chances of a person on an MH flight making a quip about it were high enough but, I mean...

Does it really change things, though? Are we going to war because some disparate mercs. ed up?  Russia will try to spin this and create a cloud over who actually did it.  People inclined to mistrust the West will just believe the CIA did it anyway.

I forget which poster has been putting up the good articles in the other thread about the separatist factions internal infighting.  Besler and co. wanted a victory and innocent people paid the price.

Well people in this country are going to want "action", whatever that might entail. But the idea that this is somehow not "our business" will dissipate completely. The fact that these people were clearly bragging about shooting down some plane in the same village at the same time is... well if one is not persuaded by what comes next then there's no point in trying.

[Simfan34]

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http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/17/world/europe/ukraine-malaysia-airlines-crash/index.html?hpt=hp_inthenews

Putin even seems to be saying this Ukraine's fault in a vague and imprecise sense rather than stating that Ukraine shot it down.

[Simfan34]

Most likely the rebels brought down the plane, as it would be very unlikely for trained operators to confuse it with a military plane. However, since the Ukrainian government must have known that the Buks were captured for nearly three weeks, why didn't they close the airspace over the region?

I mean, it's not unheard of, not even from us.

[Simfan34]

Death toll rises by three as "infants are counted". I wonder how much of this is true. We're being told there were "80 children" on board, and now a surfeit of AIDS researchers. I mean they can't all be true at the same time.

[Simfan34]

Why do I feel like that all these planes bunched together isn't going to end well?

Also MH is offering all flights free until July 25th. They seem done for.

[Simfan34]

Why do I feel like that all these planes bunched together isn't going to end well?

Also MH is offering all flights free until July 25th. They seem done for.

You do realize that planes aren't as big as they may appear to be on that map.

Yes, I do...

As for the flights... that's an error on my part. They will waive all fees regarding changing flights, at least according to a tweet by the BBC.

[Simfan34]

RT - is trotting out a conspiracy theory that MH17 was confused for the Russian Presidential jet... So it seems the Kremlin is spinning and deflecting HARD

I like the idea that this was meant as a cover for the invasion of Gaza, if only because of my "conspiracy theory" that Russia hijacked MH370 to divert world attention from... the Ukraine. Poor Ukraine, and poor Malaysia, I suppose. But seriously, these guys are flailing. Putin didn't even try to give a valid reason for blaming Ukraine.

Usually Russia et al can get away with these sorts of things because of "South-South solidarity"  and all that but this is all so blatant that they'll be backed into a corner. You wonder, for example, how they intend to keep the black box. At the very least, this is going to make Russia unpopular in parts of the world. I mean at this juncture it's reasonably clear what happened so we just have to see how this plays out, and hope it can hasten the end of the conflict in Ukraine.

It is going to see how this affects the Netherlands. This must be the most Dutch civilians killed... since the war, I imagine? I'd be shocked if it doesn't have a permanent effect. But as for the TVs... I'd prefer that, yes.

EDIT: Actually I suppose the Tenerife disaster would actually qualify- how many of the victims were Dutch?

EDIT: And we've all seen this, right?

[Simfan34]

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Pathetic. I mean one has four engines and the other two! I'm sure they get off on intimating the Ukrainians are mentally challenged but this is beyond belief.

[Simfan34]

Why the "True Leftists" aren't denouncing the real war criminal, for once?

Who besides Snowstalker or TNF, who are always going to be all "muh nazis", is not denouncing these people. The Russians are very clearly the war criminals. And with that I guess I ought to get to sleep to prepare for what horrors we have planned for tomorrow.

[Simfan34]

Local newspapers in Malaysia are reporting PM Najib Razak's grandmother was on the flight.

Lavrov says Russia will not seize the black box, as per RT.

[Simfan34]

RT is literally showing a "media bias" piece every 10 minutes.

[Simfan34]

Also wondering if anyone was killed on the ground.

[Simfan34]

What's the atmosphere like in the Netherlands right now over this?

The BBC just posted this on their update page:

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[Simfan34]

Obama saying one American was on the flight.

[Simfan34]

I agree with True Federalist and AG; this seems like a case of manslaughter by gross negligence rather than deliberate murder.

And since negligent manslaughter is criminal, one wonders if this would constitute war crimes, meaning it would fall under the jurisdiction of the ICC.

[Simfan34]

So how far could Putin go? I mean, it's become rather clear what's happened and governments' words of caution are diplomatic formalities. Could they shoot down passenger planes at will whilst we did nothing? Bomb Kiev? Launch a full invasion of Ukraine? There's a certain point where I imagine we'd do something.

[Simfan34]

So how far could Putin go? I mean, it's become rather clear what's happened and governments' words of caution are diplomatic formalities. Could they shoot down passenger planes at will whilst we did nothing? Bomb Kiev? Launch a full invasion of Ukraine? There's a certain point where I imagine we'd do something.

I assume the point of no return would be an invasion of a NATO member state (most likely Latvia or Estonia).

This seems rather appropriate for the times.

[Simfan34]

The Russian government is trying to edit wikipedia articles on the incident.

http://stream.aljazeera.com/story/201407211855-0023944

That's very Stalinist of them.

I mean this doesn't prove the government as an entity is trying to edit the article, for all we know it could be some random pencil pusher acting on his own accord. If there were waves of edits coming from government IPs that might be different, but the Russian media is quite consistent in blaming Ukraine for this, so it's hardly peculiar.