Smack Ain't Whack Act of 2014
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Author Topic: Smack Ain't Whack Act of 2014  (Read 4891 times)
windjammer
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« on: July 18, 2014, 02:57:49 PM »

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2. Section 2 of the Comprehensive Drug Reform Act of 2013 is hereby amended to read as follows:

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Section 2: Hard Drug Legalization

1. Existing criminal penalties concerning the sale of heroin, morphine, methadone, opium, amphetamine, ketamine, PCP, cocaine and methamphetamine and the substances, plants, or chemicals needed for their processing, shall be abolished throughout the Republic of Atlasia.

2. The commercial selling of the substances mentioned in Subsection 1 of Section 2 shall be limited to persons over the age of sixteen.

3. All persons currently serving time in prison for the possession, transportation, sale, or consumption of the substances mentioned in Subsection 1, who have not committed any other crime, and who have not already been transferred to rehabilitation centers (as per the Comprehensive Drug Reform Act of 2013) to fully deal with the scope of their addiction are hereby granted amnesty. Those currently in rehabilitation programs shall be given the option of choosing to continue said programs or return home, effective upon the passage of this legislation.

4. The sale of substances mentioned in Subsection 1 shall be taxed at the following rates:

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5. The commercial sale of products mentioned in Subsection 4 shall be subject to a 25% excise tax at the point of sale.

6. No person shall be involuntarily committed to any rehabilitation program for drug abuse, effective upon the passage of this legislation.

Section 3: Implementation
 
Unless otherwise specified herein, the provisions of this legislation shall take full effect January 1, 2015.[/quote]

Sponsor: Senator TNF
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windjammer
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« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2014, 03:06:30 PM »
« Edited: July 18, 2014, 03:08:44 PM by VP windjammer »

Senator TNF, I have obviously some questions for you.

1) Why this title? Tongue
2) What is "the Regional Legal Drinking Act"? And why do you want to repeal the repeal of the Regional Legal Drinking Act
3) You want to lower the age for the consumption of drugs. And at the same time, you introduced the Sweet Sixteen Act. Shall this law be interpreted as an update of the current age of majority. Or shall it considered separately with the Sweet Sixteen Act. Would you still support this provision if your other bill (Sweet Sixteen), failed to pass the senate?
3)  how shall the modificationf of Section 2 Clause 6 be interpreted. Shall it allow the workers to be  completely intoxicated when they're working (I'm not sure if intoxicated works for the drugs, but I hope you understand what I want to say). Or does that mean that employers can't make any drug screening to their employees, but they can still forbide their worker to be completely intoxicated when they work??
4) And finally, how shall it be interpreted the repeal of Section 2 clause 3. Every driver can be totally drunk without any limit when they drive. Or, the nex legal blood alcohol content will be 0.058%, instead of 0.05%.
Thanks for your answer
Best regards,
VP WJ
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TNF
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« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2014, 08:28:13 PM »

1. Why not?

2. The Regional Legal Drinking Age Act allowed Regions to set their own drinking ages. I think that's something we should go back to allowing.

3. They'd have the same effect, but the Sweet Sixteen Act would be more wide-ranging.

4. The repeal of that clause will just make the national BAC level what it was prior to last year, which was 0.08% rather than 0.05%.
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Lumine
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« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2014, 05:44:25 PM »

Legalizing hard drugs like cocaine and heroine along with amnesty for those to sold them among other things? Seriously? The part of lowering the age to sixteen is already something I cannot support, and I fail to see how this whole bill would be a good idea. It would be a complete and utter disaster to allow such dangerous drugs to be fully legal while granting amnesty to god knows how many drug dealers, and that is one of many problems that this bill would bring.
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H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY
Alfred F. Jones
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« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2014, 07:51:22 PM »

If one were to take my comments on Sen. TNF's bills  they'd think I'm some insane right-winger, and I'll clarify that I'm not. That said, I don't want heroin in the nation's high schools.
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TNF
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« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2014, 09:04:02 AM »

The problem with Heroin comes with it's illegality more than anything else. Properly regulated and distributed heroin would be far safer and would result in far less accidental overdoses than the stuff currently being peddled on our streets.
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bore
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« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2014, 11:51:07 AM »

While it's probably true that heroin administered by the government would be safer, making it available to everyone easily would also increase the total amount used, so the number of people killed might increase even if the percentage goes right down.

I say might because I don't know the specifics about heroin or any other drug, but the general principle applies.
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Lumine
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« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2014, 11:52:46 AM »

Even assuming we could keep heroin regulated and safe (and I don't think this is possible for a moment), what about meth and cocaine? Do we really think we can solve that issue by just legalizing them when we know how dangerous they can be?
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MyRescueKittehRocks
JohanusCalvinusLibertas
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« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2014, 09:57:00 PM »

Why are we discussing legalizing hard drugs to sixteen year olds when teen driving regulations are too onerous?
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H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY
Alfred F. Jones
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« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2014, 10:40:41 PM »

The problem with Heroin comes with it's illegality more than anything else. Properly regulated and distributed heroin would be far safer and would result in far less accidental overdoses than the stuff currently being peddled on our streets.

But to high school sophomores?
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TNF
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« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2014, 08:40:16 AM »

The problem with Heroin comes with it's illegality more than anything else. Properly regulated and distributed heroin would be far safer and would result in far less accidental overdoses than the stuff currently being peddled on our streets.

But to high school sophomores?

Sure. Again, I'm a firm believer in the idea that persons 16 and older should be considered full fledged adults and should have all the rights that come with that, including the right to engage in the use of mind-altering substances. Hence my 'Sweet Sixteen' Act.
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H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY
Alfred F. Jones
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« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2014, 08:49:20 AM »

The problem with Heroin comes with it's illegality more than anything else. Properly regulated and distributed heroin would be far safer and would result in far less accidental overdoses than the stuff currently being peddled on our streets.

But to high school sophomores?

Sure. Again, I'm a firm believer in the idea that persons 16 and older should be considered full fledged adults and should have all the rights that come with that, including the right to engage in the use of mind-altering substances. Hence my 'Sweet Sixteen' Act.

Senator, have you thought through the ramifications of giving high schoolers access to every drug imaginable? I have, and they're not pretty.
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TNF
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« Reply #12 on: July 25, 2014, 08:56:05 AM »

Hate to break it to you, but high schoolers are already doing these drugs. I'd rather them do them safely than in an alleyway somewhere with a needle they could be contracting AIDS or hepatitis from.
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H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY
Alfred F. Jones
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« Reply #13 on: July 25, 2014, 10:48:20 AM »

(Internet sucks here, so my participation will be reduced for the next week or so. I'll still try to respond though.)
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Lumine
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« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2014, 10:24:09 PM »

Hate to break it to you, but high schoolers are already doing these drugs. I'd rather them do them safely than in an alleyway somewhere with a needle they could be contracting AIDS or hepatitis from.

Legalizing those drugs will only cause more and more of them to use it, and even if we can prevent some issues like those risks in illegal drugs, the consecuences would offset that by a lot. Regardless of what one thinks of the War of Drugs and related topics, I refuse to believe that this path will lead to a more conscious and safe use of drugs. Last time I checked, the effects of drugs like cocaine where neither positive nor measured. That some of them are already doing those drugs doesn't mean we have to make them legal.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2014, 06:29:20 AM »

"People will do what they want anyway", if taken to its fullest extent would lead to a libertarian paradise, which I somehow doubt TNF really wants particularly in the economic realm. Wink

You can make a case that marijuana cannot be justified being illegal and that the war on drugs and incarceration versus treatment is both racist and stupid financially. However, some things aren't safe for people to use and some things cause people to pose a danger to society with no positives to counter the costs with. I certainly think hard drugs fall into that category.
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Napoleon
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« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2014, 11:56:12 AM »

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H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY
Alfred F. Jones
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« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2014, 12:14:52 PM »

I never thought I'd say this, but I agree entirely with Sens. Lumine and Yankee. Perhaps we could amend this to include only the softer drugs (LSD, shrooms, etc.)? Or are those all already legal?
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TNF
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« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2014, 12:17:57 PM »

I never thought I'd say this, but I agree entirely with Sens. Lumine and Yankee. Perhaps we could amend this to include only the softer drugs (LSD, shrooms, etc.)? Or are those all already legal?

Those are all already legal.

I really think that it is imperative, at the very least, that cocaine and heroin be legalized. These are widely used drugs that would be far less dangerous if legal and regulated.
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Lumine
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« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2014, 01:12:53 PM »

I never thought I'd say this, but I agree entirely with Sens. Lumine and Yankee. Perhaps we could amend this to include only the softer drugs (LSD, shrooms, etc.)? Or are those all already legal?

Yeah, this is one of those bills with a strange outcome, xD.

Look, like Yankee I can understand and support marijuana, it has positive effects and the negatives are rather minor. Cocaine and most hard drugs can destroy a human being and fuel him with paranoia and god knows what, and that is not a minor difference.
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Maxwell
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« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2014, 01:55:44 PM »

I never thought I'd say this, but I agree entirely with Sens. Lumine and Yankee. Perhaps we could amend this to include only the softer drugs (LSD, shrooms, etc.)? Or are those all already legal?

Those are all already legal.

I really think that it is imperative, at the very least, that cocaine and heroin be legalized. These are widely used drugs that would be far less dangerous if legal and regulated.

Putting power out of the hands of pimps and drug dealers and putting it in the public light. This is a win for public health no question about it.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #21 on: July 26, 2014, 05:35:01 PM »

I never thought I'd say this, but I agree entirely with Sens. Lumine and Yankee. Perhaps we could amend this to include only the softer drugs (LSD, shrooms, etc.)? Or are those all already legal?

Those are all already legal.

I really think that it is imperative, at the very least, that cocaine and heroin be legalized. These are widely used drugs that would be far less dangerous if legal and regulated.

Putting power out of the hands of pimps and drug dealers and putting it in the public light. This is a win for public health no question about it.

The presence of taxes and regulations, use promote such an path, will themselves ensure a continue black market no? 
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Deus Naturae
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« Reply #22 on: July 26, 2014, 05:43:26 PM »

Even if you don't like markets, legal markets are pretty much always safer and better-functioning than criminalized markets. In a legal market, markets actors can take their disputes to a court of law. When a market is criminalized, violence is the only available method of conflict resolution. In the case of criminalized drugs, a dealer can basically do anything to an addict and the addict can't go to the authorities for fear of being jailed for illegal drug use. Even if you just want to criminalize dealing/sales, the same sort of problems will arise. A dealer could operate a coercive monopoly over sales in a certain areas (his turf) by using violence against attempted competitors, who have no method of legal redress. The dealer can then abuse addicts in his area in pretty much any way he wants. Point is, unless you're proposing to completely abolish markets for certain drugs (which is pretty much impossible), legalization is the only solution.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2014, 11:37:59 AM »

Even if you don't like markets, legal markets are pretty much always safer and better-functioning than criminalized markets. In a legal market, markets actors can take their disputes to a court of law. When a market is criminalized, violence is the only available method of conflict resolution. In the case of criminalized drugs, a dealer can basically do anything to an addict and the addict can't go to the authorities for fear of being jailed for illegal drug use. Even if you just want to criminalize dealing/sales, the same sort of problems will arise. A dealer could operate a coercive monopoly over sales in a certain areas (his turf) by using violence against attempted competitors, who have no method of legal redress. The dealer can then abuse addicts in his area in pretty much any way he wants. Point is, unless you're proposing to completely abolish markets for certain drugs (which is pretty much impossible), legalization is the only solution.

I generally like markets, but there are some things that have to remain illegal for the public safety. We prohibit the marketing of unsafe products, of stuff that is environmentally dangerous and many other things as well. You are saying that maintaining illegality creates a black market, yes, but so does the taxes and regulations of a legal market. Is the creation of a legal market for hard drugs, which from the data Nappy posted is a smaller market overall then say pot, going to create enough a marginal reduction in the size of said black market when you cosnider the continuation of such as induced by the aforementioned taxes and regulations? 

Operations can only get so small and whilst you may reduce it somewhat I think you hit a situation of diminishing returns whereby it will hit that subert tax/regulatory regime niche, and thus further elimination of the black market by legalization is impossible.
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Deus Naturae
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« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2014, 08:15:19 PM »

I generally like markets, but there are some things that have to remain illegal for the public safety. We prohibit the marketing of unsafe products, of stuff that is environmentally dangerous and many other things as well. You are saying that maintaining illegality creates a black market, yes, but so does the taxes and regulations of a legal market. Is the creation of a legal market for hard drugs, which from the data Nappy posted is a smaller market overall then say pot, going to create enough a marginal reduction in the size of said black market when you cosnider the continuation of such as induced by the aforementioned taxes and regulations? 

Operations can only get so small and whilst you may reduce it somewhat I think you hit a situation of diminishing returns whereby it will hit that subert tax/regulatory regime niche, and thus further elimination of the black market by legalization is impossible.
Obviously the size of the black market will be reduced, because currently all relevant transactions are conducted on black markets. The point I'm trying to make is that if market actors can't take their grievances to a court of law without fear of being imprisoned themselves, violence will necessarily be the only available method of conflict resolution. Right now we have a situation where violent dealers can do whatever they want to addicts because a) the addicts are afraid to go to the legal authorities for fear of being jailed, and b) cartels can maintain coercive monopolies over large areas because potential competitors can't go after them for their acts of criminal violence, lest they themselves be imprisoned for drug dealing. Yes, taxes and regulations will ensure that black markets continue to exist, but at least with legalization cartels and criminals can actually be taken to court for engaging in violent crime, and addicts will no longer be at the total mercy of one monopolistic supplier.
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