Wages for Housework Act

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

This assumes that every non-working member of the family a) does housework and b) does enough housework to earn over $30,000 a year - above the current minimum wage IIRC, does it not?

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Is Nixcome not a full UBI? I've been under the impression that it was. If it's not, it should be, and probably at or around the poverty line.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Is Nixcome not a full UBI? I've been under the impression that it was. If it's not, it should be, and probably at or around the poverty line.

Nixcome is a negative income tax, which is not the same thing. It's use is limited to persons receiving welfare, if I recall the debates surrounding it's implementation correctly. I don't think that we should limit ourselves to pegging the UBI to the poverty line, personally. I think, if anything, it should be enough to permit someone to choose not to work if they don't want to. This will not only have the effect of making work a choice rather than something that is forced on all of us, it will force wages upward, because employers will have to offer something to their employees to get them to choose employment, rather than choosing just to collect the UBI.

How about 125% of the poverty line? Then we won't have to adjust it every few years (though this does raise concerns about price increases and suchlike, and while I've seen good assuasions of those concerns, I don't think a UBI has ever been tried IRL).

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Thank you for your contribution, Mr. Napoleon, sir.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

I'd work, for one, and I'm sure you would, Mr. Hagrid.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

I'd work, for one, and I'm sure you would, Mr. Hagrid.

I'm not so sure. If the state was paying me enough to live comfortably without having to work a job, the long-term "fulfillment" probably wouldn't trump the short-term convenience of staying home. Again, some kind of small basic guarantee is one thing, but a large amount that makes work completely optional is just asking for trouble.

But it wouldn't be necessarily "comfortable", just enough to get by. And people will always want more money, won't they?

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

I'd work, for one, and I'm sure you would, Mr. Hagrid.

I'm not so sure. If the state was paying me enough to live comfortably without having to work a job, the long-term "fulfillment" probably wouldn't trump the short-term convenience of staying home. Again, some kind of small basic guarantee is one thing, but a large amount that makes work completely optional is just asking for trouble.

But it wouldn't be necessarily "comfortable", just enough to get by. And people will always want more money, won't they?

They can receive this handout as long as another member of their family is providing their income. So, a perfectly well-off housewife could receive this as long as her husband provides the majority of their income.

Yeah, sorry. I got off on the tangent of UBI, but at least UBI has merits. Deus is right—the proposal at hand may have good intentions, but it will be so easily abused and in many circumstances we would be paying for people to live comfortably. We're basically subsidizing Ann Romney's maid.

I think we all got off on the UBI tangent there - that's what my comment was. As I hope to have implied earlier I have my doubts about this proposal, to put it generously. Should we just convert this into a UBI debate?

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Perhaps we could administer it based on the needs of each household? We can use the Social Security database (for indeed what is a UBI but a full-throated expansion of Social Security?) to determine how many people are in each household and adjust accordingly, though the census does only come around every ten years and things could vary widely in that time, or perhaps we could just take the average family size and set the UBI rate using that.

Also, to the detractors of UBI, the Venerable Wikipedia has this to say on the Mincome proposal, a trial run of a basic income in Manitoba in the 1970s:

"The results showed a modest impact on labor markets, with working hours dropping one percent for men, three percent for wives, and five percent for unmarried women...Mothers spent more time rearing newborns, and the educational impacts are regarded as a success. Students in these families showed higher test scores and lower dropout rates. There was also an increase in adults continuing education...Only new mothers and teenagers worked substantially less. Mothers with newborns stopped working because they wanted to stay at home longer with their babies, and teenagers worked less because they weren't under as much pressure to support their families, which resulted in more teenagers graduating. In addition, those who continued to work were given more opportunities to choose what type of work they did. Forget found that in the period that Mincome was administered, hospital visits dropped 8.5 percent, with fewer incidents of work-related injuries, and fewer emergency room visits from car accidents and domestic abuse."

TL;DR support a UBI if you oppose domestic violence

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Yes, Mr. President and Mr. Simfan, sirs, that is why we have moved on to discussion of a UBI.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

I don't think a UBI should include "extra spending money" - that's what jobs will be for. Perhaps 20-25K?

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Did I mention the Mincome experiment yet? If not, here goes:

In the 1970s, a proposal was made in Manitoba for a UBI, and they tested it out to see how many people would stop working. Working hours were reduced by 5% overall, mostly by working mothers (to focus on their children) and students (to focus on their studies). The following two quotes are from this NYT article on UBI.

"Evelyn Forget, a health economist at the University of Manitoba, has done some of the best research on the results. Some of her findings were obvious: Poverty disappeared. But others were more surprising: High-school completion rates went up; hospitalization rates went down. 'If you have a social program like this, community values themselves start to change,' Forget said."

"'For a lot of economists, the issue was that you would disincentivize work,' said Wayne Simpson, a Canadian economist who has studied Mincome. 'The evidence showed that it was not nearly as bad as some of the literature had suggested.'"

This next quote is from the Wikipedia article on UBI:

"However, in studies of the Mincome experiment in rural Manitoba, the only two groups who worked less in a significant way were new mothers, and teenagers working to support their families. New mothers spent this time with their infant children, and working teenagers put significant additional time into their schooling. Under Mincome, 'the reduction of work effort was modest: about one per cent for men, three per cent for wives, and five per cent for unmarried women.' Another study that contradicted such decline in work incentive was the Namibian pilot project implemented in 2008 and 2009 in the Omitara village; the assessment of the project after its conclusion found that economic activity actually increased, particularly through the launch of small businesses, and reinforcement of the local market by increasing households' buying power."

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

What pilot programs would you propose, Mr. Simfan, sir? After all, we walk on untrodden ground.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

If we're going to try a pilot program, I feel like there's a role for the Department of Internal Affairs in there somewhere... It just seems like the SoIA is well-positioned to act as an emissary between the federal government and whichever jurisdictions are hosting the program.

Like, we can't really make one region be the guinea pig without their input, can we?

I vote we do it to the Midwest. They'll be cool with it.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Well, the NE has a big budget surplus that could be put to good use....

Hm...I would like free money.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

How about somewhere between $1500 and $2000 a month for the pilot program? I'll check with my Northeastern buddies and see if they might be willing to take on the program.