Arizona execution lasts almost 2 hours
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  Arizona execution lasts almost 2 hours
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Author Topic: Arizona execution lasts almost 2 hours  (Read 4831 times)
Franzl
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« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2014, 01:49:02 PM »


Says you. I don't think it's possible to discuss this meaningfully when we can't agree on that premise.

At least we agree that capital punishment isn't a particularly useful form of punishment in its present form, but to call it murder broadens the concept of murder so much as to make it essentially indistinguishable from manslaughter.

Alright this interests me. I can see holding the position that capital punishment is neither murder nor manslaughter (even I though I strongly disagree), but I can't see arguing that it IS manslaughter but not murder.

How are you distinguishing between the two? Because capital punishment is certainly pre-meditated killing.

Capital punishment is not done with malice.  That's the critical distinction between murder and manslaughter.  Intending ahead of time that your malicious act will definitely result in death is the usual distinction between first- and second-degree murder.

OK, but how is capital punishment not done with malice? I imagine you'll say it's being done in the positive interest of society, but towards the person being executed, it seems pretty malicious.

I don't see, on a moral level, why it matters whether the person has been convicted of a crime, as to whether killing him should be regarded as malicious.
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AggregateDemand
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« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2014, 01:51:39 PM »

Death penalty is not proper administration of justice, but manufacturing sympathy for homicidal citizens is equally dubious. If an intellectual argument cannot be made, anti-death-penalty factions shouldn't bother.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2014, 02:05:16 PM »

This doesn't really bother me. I think capital punishment is immoral and flatly wrong, But attempting to garner sympathy for the poor unfortunate murderers isn't going to be attracting any supporters to the anti-death penalty crowd. I mean TDAS says he "shouldn't have been tortured", but as I've said before, I'd prefer torture (which I don't have any moral objection to as a form of punishment, at least) over execution. But then again, such "torture" isn't really torture per se as opposed to physical punishment.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2014, 02:20:32 PM »

Capital punishment is not done with malice.  That's the critical distinction between murder and manslaughter.  Intending ahead of time that your malicious act will definitely result in death is the usual distinction between first- and second-degree murder.

OK, but how is capital punishment not done with malice? I imagine you'll say it's being done in the positive interest of society, but towards the person being executed, it seems pretty malicious.

I don't see, on a moral level, why it matters whether the person has been convicted of a crime, as to whether killing him should be regarded as malicious.

Malice requires evil intent.  As long as it not done spitefully or meanfully, an execution need not be malicious.
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Bojack Horseman
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« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2014, 02:26:53 PM »

I support the death penalty in limited cases, however I strongly oppose the death penalty the way Texas uses it, where murder itself in any case can result in a death sentence. If it's taking 2 hours to die, this is a clear 8th Amendment case, and the Supreme Court's refusal to make them disclose the drugs/manufacturers, or to stop the torture is just another example of how partisan and activist this court has gotten.
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TJ in Oregon
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« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2014, 02:35:41 PM »

Capital punishment is not done with malice.  That's the critical distinction between murder and manslaughter.  Intending ahead of time that your malicious act will definitely result in death is the usual distinction between first- and second-degree murder.

OK, but how is capital punishment not done with malice? I imagine you'll say it's being done in the positive interest of society, but towards the person being executed, it seems pretty malicious.

I don't see, on a moral level, why it matters whether the person has been convicted of a crime, as to whether killing him should be regarded as malicious.

Malice requires evil intent.  As long as it not done spitefully or meanfully, an execution need not be malicious.

If capital punishment is not done with spite or malice then why do they consult the victim's family when deciding whether or not to seek it? If it is truly done on the basis of the good of society or protecting innocent people from dangerous criminals then the wishes of the victims' families would be irrelevant. But whether or not it is necessary to kill the criminal to protect society is not the primary deciding factor in the US. Clearly whatever assortment of reasons why its done in the US does include some element of spite or malice. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's murder still and in general there may be exceptional circumstances where capital punishment is morally warranted but that would apply to almost no cases in the US.

Oh and stories like this say next to nothing about whether or not we should have capital punishment. They're important to a discussion of the methods at best and at worst anecdotal clickbait.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #31 on: July 24, 2014, 03:11:58 PM »

If capital punishment is not done with spite or malice then why do they consult the victim's family when deciding whether or not to seek it?
Because given the clusterf*** that is capital punishment in the United States, trying to obtain a death sentence without the blessing of the victim's family is pretty tough.  Even with it, it's not easy. (Not that getting it should be.)

As I've said before, while I support capital punishment in the abstract, I don't support the system we have in place in this country.  However, I also don't think trying to make it a worse system as the yahoos making it more difficult to conduct lethal injections are trying to do is going to erode support for capital punishment.
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DemPGH
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« Reply #32 on: July 24, 2014, 03:53:42 PM »
« Edited: July 24, 2014, 03:57:44 PM by DemPGH, President »

The death penalty is based on revenge, so it's always done with malice. And what about people sitting on death row who are innocent? They wouldn't be murdered if they were put to death? Or is that a minor error or something, and oh well too bad for them?
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Cory
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« Reply #33 on: July 24, 2014, 04:24:40 PM »

So nobody has an answer as to why they don't just us morphine overdose?
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CrabCake
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« Reply #34 on: July 24, 2014, 04:31:24 PM »

So nobody has an answer as to why they don't just us morphine overdose?

http://www.lists.opn.org/pipermail/right-to-die_lists.opn.org/2007-March/002072.html
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Cory
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« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2014, 04:39:53 PM »


I see.
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Bojack Horseman
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« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2014, 10:05:28 PM »

"...nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."

I think the constitutionality of an execution that takes two agonizing hours is quite settled."
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YL
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« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2014, 01:49:51 AM »


Why is it Europe's responsibility to provide the State of Arizona with the drugs it thinks it needs to kill people?
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ingemann
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« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2014, 02:40:06 AM »

I don't support the death penalty (normal European), but why don't they use nitrogen gas asphyxiation like in factory farms, as opposed to injecting people with whatever bizarre concoctions they think might work?

Because it would make people think of the Holocaust, if they gassed people. In fact there are many different methods which would easier, cheaper, more efficient and more human than the methods used now, but because the pro-capital punishment people think that the American people are fragile flowers, who can't deal with the death penalty unless it's made to look pretty and clinical, we're seeing this jokes of execution.
 
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Franzl
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« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2014, 07:09:46 AM »
« Edited: July 25, 2014, 07:15:41 AM by Franzl »


Why is it Europe's responsibility to provide the State of Arizona with the drugs it thinks it needs to kill people?

Because it's more convenient than to question the fundamentals of the American justice system.
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afleitch
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« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2014, 08:18:12 AM »

Ernest trying really hard to keep his 'KILL 'EM ALL!' mentality from fully breaking free Cheesy
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2014, 10:24:03 AM »

Ernest trying really hard to keep his 'KILL 'EM ALL!' mentality from fully breaking free Cheesy

Well, if we are going to have capital punishment, it does need to be applied more broadly and more proudly than it is.  As we currently have it, it is more a lottery for unlucky poors rather than a useful part of the criminal justice system.
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swl
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« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2014, 10:41:35 AM »

I don't like using quotes too much, but sometimes they are much better than me at expressing what I think, especially in English:
"It is the deed that teaches, not the name we give it. Murder and capital punishment are not opposites that cancel one another, but similars that breed their kind."
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Badger
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« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2014, 12:33:44 PM »

If capital punishment is not done with spite or malice then why do they consult the victim's family when deciding whether or not to seek it?
Because given the clusterf*** that is capital punishment in the United States, trying to obtain a death sentence without the blessing of the victim's family is pretty tough.  Even with it, it's not easy. (Not that getting it should be.)

As I've said before, while I support capital punishment in the abstract, I don't support the system we have in place in this country.  However, I also don't think trying to make it a worse system as the yahoos making it more difficult to conduct lethal injections are trying to do is going to erode support for capital punishment.

And most importantly, a victim (or their surviving family in a homicide case), should ALWAYS be at least consulted for input on sentencing options in a case. Note I emphasize "consulted" for "input", not given veto power or final authority on resolution.

FWIW, in the murder trial I had several weeks ago I met or spoke with the Victim's family nearly half a dozen times in the several months the case was pending, plus every day throughout the two week trial.
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afleitch
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« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2014, 02:23:14 PM »

Ernest trying really hard to keep his 'KILL 'EM ALL!' mentality from fully breaking free Cheesy

Well, if we are going to have capital punishment, it does need to be applied more broadly and more proudly than it is.  As we currently have it, it is more a lottery for unlucky poors rather than a useful part of the criminal justice system.

By 'we' of course you mean the USA. Which seems to buddy up with the Islamic world on that one.
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Badger
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« Reply #45 on: July 25, 2014, 02:28:56 PM »


Except that only his lawyers are claiming he suffered.  Apparently all the other witnesses, both those from the victim's families as well as the neutral ones from the press that were present, indicated that he wasn't snorting, he was snoring.  Yeah, it's not good that the execution took longer than expected because death penalty opponents are willing to take steps they know will cause some unexpected results.  However, last night does not appear to have created another torturous death of the the variety some long to have happen because of their monomaniacal insistence that the end of capital punishment in this country justifies any means necessary.  However, despite how death penalty opponents will try to frame the narrative, the abnormality their actions helped precipitate last night in Arizona does not appear to have gone wrong badly enough to be considered "botched".

This is worth being re-posted since the reliable witnesses establish rather convincingly the execution was hardly "torture" or even "botched".

You know another way you could prevent this possibility? By stopping killing people in the name of so-called justice. But I suppose that's a radical concept.

Pass, thank you.
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Sbane
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« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2014, 07:12:08 AM »

I really think we should use the guillotine in public squares for capital punishment or at least broadcast it on TV. It is a humane way of killing people and if as a society we decide to kill people, we should have to look at the consequences of our decision. If you can't do that, you shouldn't be in favor of the death penalty.
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« Reply #47 on: July 26, 2014, 10:22:59 AM »

Yes. What argument is there against the guillotine over lethal injection?
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Harry
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« Reply #48 on: July 26, 2014, 10:39:14 AM »

Are these things becoming more common, or was it always like this and no one cared until recently?
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politicallefty
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« Reply #49 on: July 26, 2014, 12:12:08 PM »

I really think we should use the guillotine in public squares for capital punishment or at least broadcast it on TV. It is a humane way of killing people and if as a society we decide to kill people, we should have to look at the consequences of our decision. If you can't do that, you shouldn't be in favor of the death penalty.

This is my opinion as well, as someone who opposes the death penalty. It is not a medical procedure, which so many supporters of capital punishment want to turn it in to. It is state-sanctioned homicide, the otherwise unnecessary killing of a human being. If you cannot bear to even watch, let alone "flip the switch" so to speak, there is at least a considerable level of cognitive dissonance, perhaps even outright hypocrisy. I am definitely of the mindset that all executions should be televised for the entire public. Everyone should be able to see what the state is doing in their name and make judgements thereupon.
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