Man Accidentally Killed by Police Choke Hold in Staten Island
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  Man Accidentally Killed by Police Choke Hold in Staten Island
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Author Topic: Man Accidentally Killed by Police Choke Hold in Staten Island  (Read 8558 times)
patrick1
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« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2014, 07:54:25 PM »
« edited: July 25, 2014, 09:44:21 PM by Former Moderate »

I have many friends on the NYPD. It is a hard and stressful job. However, your assertions that police should have some sort of power over life and death for undesirable life choices is fascist.  I loathe the frequent use of that term but it fits.

The general juvenile and/or hateful views toward gays and varying degrees of racism held by so many within the small tent are a main reason why I am no longer a Republican.
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Deus Naturae
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« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2014, 10:46:05 PM »

Do the people who are defending these guys realize that there was no evidence Garner was even selling untaxed cigs at all? The fact that they choked an obese man to death is because he resisted arrest (while also implying that his death was somehow his fault because of his bad physical condition) is bad enough, but they was zero proof that he had even done anything wrong. WTF kind of country do we live in when someone can be forced onto the ground and butchered like an animal for protesting being arrested for a crime there is no evidence of them even committing?
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BRTD
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« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2014, 10:48:53 PM »

a) Did the police's use of force violate protocol, and if so to what degree? Again, the fact the police used physical force on a huge guy who was resisting arrest, and the obese guy died of a resulting heart attack is by NO means dispositive of the issue.

b) If yes, what impact, if any, did the deviation from procedure impact/cause the man's demise?

Uh as the OP states using chokeholds is a violation of NYPD policy.
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dead0man
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« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2014, 11:05:07 PM »

Do the people who are defending these guys realize that there was no evidence Garner was even selling untaxed cigs at all?
He'd been arrested for that very thing (I think) 3 times before.
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"butchered"?  really?

No, there is no evidence (other than being a repeat offender of the crime he was accused of) he was guilty (there is no evidence he's innocent either, but that's not as important), but there is 100% evidence he resisted.  His resisting is what lead to his death.  I'm sure he didn't know his resistance was going to lead to him having a heart attack, I'm also sure the cop didn't think his choke hold was going to lead to a dead dude.  As I said in my original post on the matter, 3 things lead to this guy's death:
A.he resisted
2.cops acting poorly
III.dumb law
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Deus Naturae
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« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2014, 11:32:00 PM »
« Edited: July 25, 2014, 11:37:28 PM by Deus Naturae »

Previous arrest is not evidence though. You can't just arrest somebody for something you have zero evidence for just because they were previously arrested for doing that thing. He has every right to resist. Plus, if you watch the video, Garner's "resistance" basically amounts to him waving his arms around before the guy grabs him from behind and puts him on the ground. Obviously this technically led to his death because it has a link in the chain of events that ended with him dying...but you could say the same thing about him leaving his house in the morning or getting out of bed. The point is that he was in no way at fault for his death.
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« Reply #30 on: July 25, 2014, 11:34:20 PM »
« Edited: July 25, 2014, 11:36:16 PM by Emperor Scott »

Do the people who are defending these guys realize that there was no evidence Garner was even selling untaxed cigs at all?
He'd been arrested for that very thing (I think) 3 times before.
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"butchered"?  really?

No, there is no evidence (other than being a repeat offender of the crime he was accused of) he was guilty (there is no evidence he's innocent either, but that's not as important), but there is 100% evidence he resisted.  His resisting is what lead to his death.  I'm sure he didn't know his resistance was going to lead to him having a heart attack, I'm also sure the cop didn't think his choke hold was going to lead to a dead dude.  As I said in my original post on the matter, 3 things lead to this guy's death:
A.he resisted
2.cops acting poorly
III.dumb law

That's not much different from how a rapist defends his crime ("She had it coming, Your Honor!!").  But regardless,  what point are you trying to make here?  Either the cops take full responsibility for the man's death and face the consequences, or they receive no penalty at all.
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bedstuy
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« Reply #31 on: July 25, 2014, 11:41:11 PM »

Previous arrest is not evidence though. You can't just arrest somebody for something you have zero evidence for just because they were previously arrested for doing that thing. He has every right to resist. Plus, if you watch the video, Garner's "resistance" basically amounts to him waving his arms around before the guy grabs him from behind and puts him on the ground. Obviously this technically led to his death because it has a link in the chain of events that ended with him dying...but you could say the same thing about him leaving his house in the morning getting out of bed. The point is that he was in no way at fault for his death.


Well, that's an interesting proposition.  You can resist arrest as long as you think you're innocent?  That would be a strange world.  In reality, if a police officer sees you break the law, they can arrest you.  They can arrest you for putting your feet up on the subway or riding a bicycle without a bell.  As I understand it, they saw him commit the crime so it was 100% a legal arrest.  But, I agree with you that the fault here lies with the NYPD.  The boys didn't need to get all Ultimate Fighting Championship on that guy.
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dead0man
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« Reply #32 on: July 26, 2014, 05:07:47 AM »

Previous arrest is not evidence though. You can't just arrest somebody for something you have zero evidence for just because they were previously arrested for doing that thing.
I'm not saying that's WHY he was arrested, me and you don't know sh**t about whether he was breaking the law.  All I'm offering is that it's quite likely he was doing it because he's done it before.
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That is in INSANE.  You can't fight a cop and win, you just can't.  Argue with the judge later, nothing good is come from fighting a cop.  That is advice for everybody, not just criminals.  DON'T FIGHT COPS!  You'll get the exact same advice from nearly everybody that works in the criminal justice system, no matter which "side" they are on.
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He's gotten out of bed everyday of his life and didn't get put in a choke hold by a cop.  He's even been arrested before without getting put in a choke hold.  Why? because presumably he didn't resist those other times.  The resistance is key and we can't ignore it.

AGAIN, I'm not putting all the blame on Mr Garner, the cops did wrong too and the law is bad, but to hand wave away the resistance (or as you're doing, encouraging it) is insane.
That's not much different from how a rapist defends his crime ("She had it coming, Your Honor!!").
Except that it's not the same at all.
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that three things lead to Mr Garner's death, only one of which was the fault of a cop and THAT was avoidable had the law or Mr Garner not been wrong first.
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Perhaps he will, but he won't get a murder rap no matter how much the cop haters cry for it, and he wouldn't deserve it either.
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dead0man
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« Reply #33 on: July 26, 2014, 06:03:55 AM »

I'm not sure if anybody here cares about the actual story beyond their recreational outrage, but the 4 EMS (ambulance crew standing around) have been suspended without pay and the cop has had his (no doubt by a black and angry chief*) gun and badge taken away from him.




*to be clear, that is a joke on the typical Hollywood police chief that is normally black and ALWAYS angry....'cause he just got off the phone with the mayor and the mayor was chewing his ass out.
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Deus Naturae
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« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2014, 02:10:44 AM »

Well, that's an interesting proposition.  You can resist arrest as long as you think you're innocent?  That would be a strange world.  In reality, if a police officer sees you break the law, they can arrest you.  They can arrest you for putting your feet up on the subway or riding a bicycle without a bell.  As I understand it, they saw him commit the crime so it was 100% a legal arrest.  But, I agree with you that the fault here lies with the NYPD.  The boys didn't need to get all Ultimate Fighting Championship on that guy.
They never saw him do anything though...
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Deus Naturae
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« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2014, 02:25:47 AM »

I'm not saying that's WHY he was arrested, me and you don't know sh**t about whether he was breaking the law.  All I'm offering is that it's quite likely he was doing it because he's done it before.
So every person who has ever committed a crime should be arrested because they've likely committed that crime again?

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Garner's "fighting" basically amounted to him verbally arguing with the cops and waving his arms a few times. You're telling me he has no right to do either of those things when he's being arrested for a crime there's no evidence for?

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Probably because he wasn't spotted by a messed up cop with a history of sadistic bullying. Also, given that he was actually guilty in the previous incidences his arresters presumably had some actual evidence.
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Deus Naturae
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« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2014, 02:55:51 AM »

the cop has had his (no doubt by a black and angry chief*) gun and badge taken away from him.
Though not without protest from the head of the NYC police union.
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jfern
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« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2014, 03:05:43 AM »

Well, that's an interesting proposition.  You can resist arrest as long as you think you're innocent?  That would be a strange world.  In reality, if a police officer sees you break the law, they can arrest you.  They can arrest you for putting your feet up on the subway or riding a bicycle without a bell.  As I understand it, they saw him commit the crime so it was 100% a legal arrest.  But, I agree with you that the fault here lies with the NYPD.  The boys didn't need to get all Ultimate Fighting Championship on that guy.
They never saw him do anything though...

Sometimes people are charged only with resisting arrest, which is pretty ridiculous.
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dead0man
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« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2014, 06:18:19 AM »

I'm not saying that's WHY he was arrested, me and you don't know sh**t about whether he was breaking the law.  All I'm offering is that it's quite likely he was doing it because he's done it before.
So every person who has ever committed a crime should be arrested because they've likely committed that crime again?
AGAIN, I'm not saying his past crimes is the evidence.  We (me AND you) don't know what evidence the cops had.  I don't understand why this is hard to understand.
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Garner's "fighting" basically amounted to him verbally arguing with the cops and waving his arms a few times. You're telling me he has no right to do either of those things when he's being arrested for a crime there's no evidence for?[/quote]Yes.  Argue with the judge, not the cop.  You can win against the judge, you CAN NOT WIN against a cop.
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Probably because he wasn't spotted by a messed up cop with a history of sadistic bullying. Also, given that he was actually guilty in the previous incidences his arresters presumably had some actual evidence.

[/quote]Or he just didn't resist those times, seems much more likely.
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BobDavis
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« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2014, 03:43:15 PM »

I bet the cop will just have a paid vacation for a couple of weeks.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #40 on: July 29, 2014, 11:30:27 AM »
« Edited: July 29, 2014, 11:33:40 AM by Simfan34 »

People like Al Sharpton... always seem to be reacting to something, never coming up with anything of their own, rushing to the scene whenever some black person is killed by a white person, but not actually making any suggestion as to how this would be changed. The man was stupid. The cop was stupid. It's not racism, it's just stupidity, and nonsense libertarians and leftist heroes seem to be missing that.

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http://nypost.com/2014/07/28/stand-up-police-commissioner-bratton/
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dead0man
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« Reply #41 on: July 29, 2014, 11:54:02 AM »

I guess we should be happy that THIS is the best the cop haters have to outrage over.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #42 on: July 29, 2014, 12:07:34 PM »

People playing down his life choices overlook the fact that had he been in better health he most likely would have not died.
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Badger
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« Reply #43 on: July 29, 2014, 09:31:19 PM »

a) Did the police's use of force violate protocol, and if so to what degree? Again, the fact the police used physical force on a huge guy who was resisting arrest, and the obese guy died of a resulting heart attack is by NO means dispositive of the issue.

b) If yes, what impact, if any, did the deviation from procedure impact/cause the man's demise?

Uh as the OP states using chokeholds is a violation of NYPD policy.

What exactly, per NYPD protocol, is a "chokehold", and was it used in this case.

The man was talking--having just gone through a two week choking murder trial several weeks ago you CAN'T talk much if you're being choked. He could. Yes, he was saying "I can't breathe", but people having heart attacks frequently feel constricted breathing. The first SOP for determining whether someone is choking vs. having a heart attack is to ask if they can speak.

If he could talk, that indicates there may not have been a "chokehold" used.
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Badger
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« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2014, 09:37:51 PM »

Previous arrest is not evidence though. You can't just arrest somebody for something you have zero evidence for just because they were previously arrested for doing that thing. He has every right to resist. Plus, if you watch the video, Garner's "resistance" basically amounts to him waving his arms around before the guy grabs him from behind and puts him on the ground. Obviously this technically led to his death because it has a link in the chain of events that ended with him dying...but you could say the same thing about him leaving his house in the morning or getting out of bed. The point is that he was in no way at fault for his death.


Yes, the video didn't show him illegally selling cigarettes, so there was OBVIOUSLY no proof WHATSOEVER it happened. Roll Eyes Dude, we're getting the tail end of the police investigation/observations. They only need probable cause for an arrest.

More to the point, if you're innocent, you don't fight the cops on the street, you fight them in the courtroom.

The man refused to be arrested, leaving the cops with the choice of: a) physically arresting him after having tried EXTENSIVELY to verbally get him to comply; or b) say sorry we bothered you and walk away (i.e. not do their jobs).
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patrick1
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« Reply #45 on: August 01, 2014, 10:21:21 PM »
« Edited: August 01, 2014, 10:23:03 PM by patrick1 »


^Coroner rules death a homicide.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/01/justice/new-york-choke-hold-death/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
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Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck
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« Reply #46 on: August 02, 2014, 12:38:25 AM »

Something has to be done about cops from the federal level.  Police brutality is rampant and within the structure of an individual station, no doubt this behavior is provoked and promoted.  Let's start with higher standards and pay for those who are tasked with law enforcement and go from there.  As it is, too many cops out there (hell, more than a few slipping through the system would be unacceptable) are insecure high school losers who beat and prey on the helpless for their own sick amusement.  These are the exact types that should not be given corrupting power. 
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Snowstalker Mk. II
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« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2014, 05:58:45 PM »


Wow, for once pigs are held accountable. Bravo.
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« Reply #48 on: August 02, 2014, 08:42:37 PM »

Something has to be done about cops from the federal level.  Police brutality is rampant and within the structure of an individual station, no doubt this behavior is provoked and promoted.  Let's start with higher standards and pay for those who are tasked with law enforcement and go from there.  As it is, too many cops out there (hell, more than a few slipping through the system would be unacceptable) are insecure high school losers who beat and prey on the helpless for their own sick amusement.  These are the exact types that should not be given corrupting power. 

For things like this the feds often do handle it pretty well when the local authorities don't. For example see the Rodney King beating.
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