Should Israel exist?

[dead0man]

Perhaps (we can't know that), but you HAVE to see how stupid the idea would have looked to the Jews at the time.  I have no clue how any can argue otherwise.

[Sbane]

Indeed.  Surrounded by an entire continent that they felt hated them, living next door to a people that had just tried to wipe them off the planet.  And actually really tried to do it, not the faux "genocide" or "slaughter" you occasionally hear Hamas apologists call Israeli actions against Palestinians.

I can completely understand why Jews wouldn't have wanted a country within Europe but they didn't get a much better deal, did they? I guess the difference is the Palestinians are brown and poor so they are easier to control than Europeans would have been.

Indeed.  Germans, even if completely de-nutted after WWII, were still a first world country, with the ability to rearm quickly if allowed.  Put a bunch of Jews in Bavaria, and you have two good motivators for Germans to hate Jews even more.  Even if they knew the level of hatred they'd get in Palestine it would still make more sense to move there as they knew that the Arab states, mostly newly created like the Jewish state, couldn't and wouldn't put up the same level of violence the Germans could.

It would have be stupid to do that to the Jews and people in 2014 that suggest it clearly lack the ability to think things through.  It might sound good on the surface, but any digging/thinking at all and the theory falls to pieces faster than a cease fire in Gaza.

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In hind sight, yeah, maybe.  Too bad the countries where it might of worked were almost as racist as Europeans and said "awww f@(k no".

I got an interesting question for you. Do you think Americans would be just as pro-Israeli if the people being hostile to them were Europeans as opposed to Palestinians?

[Velasco]

The creation of a Jewish state in Palestine was a mistake, but one it's far, far too late to correct now.  Israel is here to stay.

I would agree with this, but the third question presents a real block- what should have been done instead?

There is no easy answer. In any case it's impossible to go back in History, so the questions that I ask to myself concern the future of Israel. Is the survival of Israel, understood as a "Jewish and democratic state" consisting of some part of the former Mandatory Palestine, viable in the long term? Will the unconditional support from the US government, of which Israel depends, last forever?

[Sol]

I think, considering the realities of the situation, a state of Israel should be able to peacefully coexist alongside a state of Palestine. However, Israel should not be recognized as a Jewish state.

[Deus Naturae]

I think, considering the realities of the situation, a state of Israel should be able to peacefully coexist alongside a state of Palestine. However, Israel should not be recognized as a Jewish state.

Why not? There are plenty of Islamic and Christian states. Is it really worth fighting over this?

[dead0man]

I got an interesting question for you. Do you think Americans would be just as pro-Israeli if the people being hostile to them were Europeans as opposed to Palestinians?

If they were otherwise acting the exact same way I certainly would.  Russians are white and I'm not too keen on a lot of their actions.  I can't say how other pro-Israel Americans would react, but I'd imagine most would feel the same as me.

[Simfan34]

Well as Snowstalker correctly pointed out (albeit in an atrocious post),

The persecution of homosexuals which begun with the Night of the Long Knives' purge of most gay NSDAP members and culminated in mass extermination of homosexuals did not change popular attitude towards gays in the postwar era. The Roma, the second-biggest victims of Nazi racial policy after the Jews, received nothing and continue to be treated like subhumans in most of Europe.

Why would the Jews have fared any better?

[dead0man]

I got an interesting question for you. Do you think Americans would be just as pro-Israeli if the people being hostile to them were Europeans as opposed to Palestinians?

If they were otherwise acting the exact same way I certainly would.  Russians are white and I'm not too keen on a lot of their actions.  I can't say how other pro-Israel Americans would react, but I'd imagine most would feel the same as me.

and something I just thought of....how would the ANTI-Zionists here and in Europe react if whitey was being dicks to Israel instead of brown people?

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Indeed.  Surrounded by an entire continent that they felt hated them, living next door to a people that had just tried to wipe them off the planet.  And actually really tried to do it, not the faux "genocide" or "slaughter" you occasionally hear Hamas apologists call Israeli actions against Palestinians.

A good chunk of the continent still does hate us  The anti-Semetic violence in Europe is making that clearer and clearer each day.  If this were over whether or not there should be a state for anyone other than the Jewish people, you'd see no more than the occasional hashtag activism at most.  However, because the Palestinians are attacking Jews, suddenly they've become the European cause of the moment.  While things haven't reached pogrom territory, many of the violent protesters in Europe would almost certainly start organizing programs if given half a chance.  This whole mess has just been one big excuse for anti-semites in Europe and the most radical fringes of the American left to start saying what they really mean.  As others have pointed out, no one cares about the existence of a Jordanian state or a Christian state.  Where have all these protesters been during the Kurdish struggle for their own state?  They've been busy ignoring that conflict because there were no Jews to rant about and/or terrorize.  You certainly don't hear anyone protesting that the Vatican is a Catholic state.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that everyone who is anti-Israel (or even anti-Israel because of the flare-up in Gaza) is anti-semetic.  A good comparison is the tea-party.  I think it is ridiculous to act like everyone in the tea-party movement is a racist or a race-baiter.  However, it is just as ridiculous to pretend that the ones who are racist aren't a powerful and vocal segment of the movement.  

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The Vatican comparison is a really bad one. If the Vatican was several thousand times its current size, occupied territory populated by a non-Catholic people and had Catholic settlers going to this territory it'd be more of an issue. I'll say more when I'm off my phone. Let me preface though by saying i don't find the simple premise of an ethnically Jewish state any more offensive than any other ethnically based state.

[Sbane]

I got an interesting question for you. Do you think Americans would be just as pro-Israeli if the people being hostile to them were Europeans as opposed to Palestinians?

If they were otherwise acting the exact same way I certainly would.  Russians are white and I'm not too keen on a lot of their actions.  I can't say how other pro-Israel Americans would react, but I'd imagine most would feel the same as me.

and something I just thought of....how would the ANTI-Zionists here and in Europe react if whitey was being dicks to Israel instead of brown people?

It would depend on who exactly was being hostile. Is it landless people not accepted in neighboring countries living in ghettoes, or is it privileged countries doing it due to bigotry. For example, I am much more sympathetic to Hamas firing rockets than I would be of a Saudi Arabian invasion to get Jews out of the holy land. One party is doing it because they don't think they have any other choice. The other party is doing it due to bigotry.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

I got an interesting question for you. Do you think Americans would be just as pro-Israeli if the people being hostile to them were Europeans as opposed to Palestinians?

If they were otherwise acting the exact same way I certainly would.  Russians are white and I'm not too keen on a lot of their actions.  I can't say how other pro-Israel Americans would react, but I'd imagine most would feel the same as me.

and something I just thought of....how would the ANTI-Zionists here and in Europe react if whitey was being dicks to Israel instead of brown people?

It would depend who exactly was being hostile. Is it landless people not accepted in neighboring countries living in ghettoes, or is it privileged countries doing it out of bigotry. For example, I am much more sympathetic to Hamas firing rockets than I would be of a Saudi Arabian invasion to get Jews out of the holy land. One party is doing it because they don't think they have a choice. The other party is doing it due to bigotry.

Implying Hamas doesn't want to slaughter every single Jew in Israel at an absolute minimum  

[ingemann]

An Israel carved out of Germany would be way more peaceful and have less conflict than Israel today. I have no clue how anyone can argue otherwise.

Germany was peaceful, because GDR was occupied by USSR and FRG feared invasion by USSR, carving some territory up in the middle of FRG, which are what people usual suggest, while FRG was dealing with 12 million refugees, would be a recipe for disaster, and at very least it would result in anti-semitism would still being very accepted in FRG as it was for decades after WW2, and at worst it would make western Europe much less peaceful.

So no placing Israel in Bavaria, Rhineland or wherever you people want to place it, would only serve to destablise Europe, and it would not be a solution to the trouble in Palestinia, as 1/3 of the population was already Jewish there before the War.

[Peter the Lefty]

Yes, but it should be diplomatically and economically isolated until it ends the occupation of the West Bank, lifts movement restrictions on Gaza and allows humanitarian supplies in, and allots full and equal rights to Arabs living in Israel. 

[Sbane]

I got an interesting question for you. Do you think Americans would be just as pro-Israeli if the people being hostile to them were Europeans as opposed to Palestinians?

If they were otherwise acting the exact same way I certainly would.  Russians are white and I'm not too keen on a lot of their actions.  I can't say how other pro-Israel Americans would react, but I'd imagine most would feel the same as me.

and something I just thought of....how would the ANTI-Zionists here and in Europe react if whitey was being dicks to Israel instead of brown people?

It would depend who exactly was being hostile. Is it landless people not accepted in neighboring countries living in ghettoes, or is it privileged countries doing it out of bigotry. For example, I am much more sympathetic to Hamas firing rockets than I would be of a Saudi Arabian invasion to get Jews out of the holy land. One party is doing it because they don't think they have a choice. The other party is doing it due to bigotry.

Implying Hamas doesn't want to slaughter every single Jew in Israel at an absolute minimum  

Sure, Hamas is just as bigoted as the Saudis, but it is understandable why they are fighting Israel. Saudi Arabia attacking Israel would be completely unjustified. Also, there are plenty of Israelis who won't compromise beyond the sea to the Jordan river, so don't think that faction of Israel(which is currently in power) has a better moral standing than Hamas.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

An Israel carved out of Germany would be way more peaceful and have less conflict than Israel today. I have no clue how anyone can argue otherwise.

Germany was peaceful, because GDR was occupied by USSR and FRG feared invasion by USSR, carving some territory up in the middle of FRG, which are what people usual suggest, while FRG was dealing with 12 million refugees, would be a recipe for disaster, and at very least it would result in anti-semitism would still being very accepted in FRG as it was for decades after WW2, and at worst it would make western Europe much less peaceful.

So no placing Israel in Bavaria, Rhineland or wherever you people want to place it, would only serve to destablise Europe, and it would not be a solution to the trouble in Palestinia, as 1/3 of the population was already Jewish there before the War.

I'm not saying it'd be perfect, or that it'd even be a good idea. I'm just saying it'd work out better NOW. In this scenario Israel would be a peaceful and fully functioning member of the EU, and Palestine would probably be a democratic, prosperous in relation to its neighbors and peaceful multi-ethnic state.

[Nutmeg]

Jewish investors did buy a LOT of land from the few private land holders.  Mostly wasteland (as most of the place was wasteland at the time) nobody really wanted.

The myth that Palestine was an unpopulated barren wasteland is repugnant. There were 1.7 million people living there in 1948. Many of them were murdered and their land/houses taken. This is the same myth as that North America was a tabula rasa just waiting for Europeans' magic touch to make it flourish.

[politicallefty]

I reject the concept of religious states, whether it be "Christian state", "Jewish state", or "Muslim state". However, in terms of a nation that is primarily made of Jews, I have no problem with that. With that said, there were so many better places it could have been created from post-WWII. As others have noted, the most obvious solution would have been carving out part of Germany. If it meant avoiding decades of war and turmoil in the Middle East, I'd have been happy giving up a small part of this country (Hawaii may have been a fine location at the time).

[ingemann]

An Israel carved out of Germany would be way more peaceful and have less conflict than Israel today. I have no clue how anyone can argue otherwise.

Germany was peaceful, because GDR was occupied by USSR and FRG feared invasion by USSR, carving some territory up in the middle of FRG, which are what people usual suggest, while FRG was dealing with 12 million refugees, would be a recipe for disaster, and at very least it would result in anti-semitism would still being very accepted in FRG as it was for decades after WW2, and at worst it would make western Europe much less peaceful.

So no placing Israel in Bavaria, Rhineland or wherever you people want to place it, would only serve to destablise Europe, and it would not be a solution to the trouble in Palestinia, as 1/3 of the population was already Jewish there before the War.

I'm not saying it'd be perfect, or that it'd even be a good idea. I'm just saying it'd work out better NOW. In this scenario Israel would be a peaceful and fully functioning member of the EU, and Palestine would probably be a democratic, prosperous in relation to its neighbors and peaceful multi-ethnic state.

Germany was not pissed at the western allies, because it could transfer its hostility to USSR, Poland and Czechoslovakia, which had expelled million of Germans. If it had also happened in the west, the result would have been that it could not transfer that hostility. EU would not have happened, the Nazi movement would likely have been much more viable in FRG and we would likely have seen a much more unstable Europe. No it would have been much worse than Middle Eastern dealing with Israel.

[Dixie Reborn]

Israel should exist. All Palestinians should be granted Israeli citizenship.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Israel should exist. All Palestinians should be granted Israeli citizenship.

Ever read The Israeli Solution by Caroline Glick?

[Dixie Reborn]

Israel should exist. All Palestinians should be granted Israeli citizenship.

Ever read The Israeli Solution by Caroline Glick?

No. Would you recommend it?

[Orser67]

Some people earlier talked about possible alternative Jewish homelands. Just thought I'd post the link below. There's some pretty interesting ideas (and I've been meaning to give this book a read).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_a_Jewish_state

[TTS1996]

To anyone but an idiot, the answer is yes. And no, the solution to voting 'no' is not 'the UN should never have created Israel in 1947 and hence Israel would not have existed today'. The question is about Israel today. Israel today has the right to exist.

As for all those American smart arses who seem to think the Second World War was just a European problem, and that instead of creating Israel, the Jewish people should have been given Bavaria (let's face it, the solution isn't Schleswig-Hostein-Israel, it's Bavaria isn't it?) do consider this:

AN EDICT
FROM TRYGVE LIE
SECRETARY GENERAL, UNITED NATIONS
2 FEBRUARY 1946

TO THE PEOPLE OF BAVARIA

1) For a long time you have been brainwashed by the Hitler cult into hating the Jews. Millions have been sent to their deaths, on the basis of your Fuhrer believing that the Jews were wicked people who wanted to take over your country. This is false and is hateful anti-semitism. The world rejects it utterly. The horrors of the Holocaust were built on a lie. You ought to be ashamed for believing it.

By the way, we have allocated Bavaria as the new Jewish homeland. You will be expelled and the Jews given your state as their new home. This is alright, ok?

2) As it is 1946 you will not know yet of the horrors of the forced marches in 1947 of Muslims out of India into Pakistan, or of the Hindus and Sikhs out of Pakistan into India. Once we march you out of your homes and out of Bavaria, count yourselves lucky. You now have two Germanies to choose your new homes in: capitalist FDR or communist DDR. What choice!

(NB Please disregard everything Hitler and the Nazis told you in the last twelve years about capitalism and communism being two sides of the same sh*tty coin. This was just Nazi propaganda. Please scrub this from your mind as you indure your forced march into your choice of Germany)

TO THE PEOPLE OF GERMANY

Basically, ditto. Hitler indoctrinated you against the Jews, but this was wicked and evil. As you are forced to billet a Bavarian in your house and cope on even fewer calories per day, thank the Lord that Hitler was wrong about the capricious Jews, and that you have the pleasure of sharing your daily half-loaf of bread with the Muenchener forced to give their home to the Jewish fatherland.

TO THE JEWISH PEOPLE

We are horrified at the German massacre of the Jews. Never, under our watch, will you have to endure these horrors again. So, for now, could you please go and settle in the strongest corner of Nazism down there in Germany, and make it your own. Yes, you're surrounded on two sides by Germans, and on the other two sides by puppet states of Joseph 'Doctor's Plot' Stalin, but then what more do you Yids want, slimily grasping away for land in Palestine? Ins't this enough? Hitler didn't try to kill you all for nothing, you know.

(NB Given the horrors, could you yourselves please pull down Dachau, and raize to the ground the ruins of the Brown House, and any other places you might like to destroy in your new homeland? We can't be bothered. You wanted saving; we've done that, now you make your new homeland pleasant for yourselves, we've simply not the time for it)

BY ORDER
THE VERY CONCERNED TRUE LEFTIST UNITED NATIONS OF ATLAS
1946

PS You wanted a homeland, didn't you? What do you mean Bavaria's a land utterly hateful to you and nowhere near your Holy Land, you ungrateful snipes? Well, look, if we gave you Palestine, in 70 years time a religious group that are very docile and quiescent now may get uppity - and we'd be forced to side with them because we don't really like kikes and Yids regardless of Hitlerism - so could you just take Bavaria now and save us any problems then?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

and it would not be a solution to the trouble in Palestinia, as 1/3 of the population was already Jewish there before the War.

And where most of the various Zionist parties and paramilitary organisations were already advocating anti-Imperialist (i.e. anti-British Mandate) policies...* Israel wasn't something kindly/foolishly (delete according to political preference) granted by the Allies as an apology for the Holocaust, it was created by armed struggle and mass political pressure by the future Israelis themselves. Both Tel Aviv and the first Kibbutz was established eight years before the Balfour Declaration.

_{*and when you reach the extreme end of things (i.e. the Lehi) you find a paramilitary organisation that took the early IRA as its model in terms of rhetoric, organisation and tactics...}