Should Israel exist?

[Simfan34]

And if you think not, what do you think should replace it? What should become of the Jewish population? What alternative would you have reccomended for the Jewish people following World War II in its stead?

[dead0man]

Should Germany, understood as a "German and democratic state" consisting of some part of the Fatherland, exist as a sovereign entity?

Should France, understood as a "French and democratic state" consisting of some part of Gaul, exist as a sovereign entity?

Should Japan, understood as a "Japanese and democratic state" consisting of some part of the Japanese archipelago, exist as a sovereign entity?


Yes, of course.  Anybody that says otherwise is either a bigot, or a bigot in hiding.

[Blue3]

Since you specified the "as a Jewish state" part... no.

Should Germany, understood as a "German and democratic state" consisting of some part of the Fatherland, exist as a sovereign entity?

Should France, understood as a "French and democratic state" consisting of some part of Gaul, exist as a sovereign entity?

Should Japan, understood as a "Japanese and democratic state" consisting of some part of the Japanese archipelago, exist as a sovereign entity?

No.
No.
No.

[ElectionsGuy]

Yes, Israel should be allowed to be a sovereign nation...

[Sbane]

Yes, of course.  Anybody that says otherwise is either a bigot, or a bigot in hiding.

What do you mean by this? Do you think someone is a bigot if they don't think Israel should have been created back in the 1940s?

[dead0man]

Yes, of course.  Anybody that says otherwise is either a bigot, or a bigot in hiding.

What do you mean by this? Do you think someone is a bigot if they don't think Israel should have been created back in the 1940s?

I meant the people that think so now, but I'd bet most people that don't think they should have then are as well.  Lots of nations were getting their own new states at the time, I don't get what makes Israel special.

[Blue3]

I think we should just have states that don't favor a specific ethnicity/religion. Israel just needs to reform. And idealistically, if it does, then decide on a one-state solution that welcomes Palestinians and Muslims. Israel has also been criticized for its handling of African Jews too, not just Palestinians.

[TDAS04]

Of course. 

[Sbane]

Yes, of course.  Anybody that says otherwise is either a bigot, or a bigot in hiding.

What do you mean by this? Do you think someone is a bigot if they don't think Israel should have been created back in the 1940s?

I meant the people that think so now, but I'd bet most people that don't think they should have then are as well.  Lots of nations were getting their own new states at the time, I don't get what makes Israel special.

Those new states were areas of the world colonized by European powers and all they were getting is control over the lands they were already living in and had been for generations. Jewish people in any large numbers had not been living in Palestine for a long time, while Palestinians were. Palestinians were uprooted from that land to create a Jewish state. I can't understand why you can't see that this is a special case.

[Grumpier Than Thou]

Ideally, no state should exist.

[dead0man]

Those new states were areas of the world colonized by European powers and all they were getting is control over the lands they were already living in and had been for generations. Jewish people in any large numbers had not been living in Palestine for a long time, while Palestinians were. Palestinians were uprooted from that land to create a Jewish state. I can't understand why you can't see that this is a special case.

There wasn't large numbers of anybody living in the area at the time.  The state of Israel at it's creation was majority Jewish, just like all the other newly created states were majority Indian, Arab, Indonesian, Cambodian, etc.  There were also plenty of uprooted peoples too.  Few of them have grandchildren firing rockets at civilians.

[7,052,770]

Obviously it should continue to exist since it already does, but you can at least argue that it would have been better to create a Jewish nation out of Germany in the late 1940s rather than in Palestine.

Of course that wouldn't change the fact that Jews were already emigrating to Palestine either way back then.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Israel is inherently a colonialist settler state oppressing and slowly shifting around the Arab population. Hopefully the tumor can be removed as painlessly as possible.

[dead0man]

Obviously it should continue to exist since it already does, but you can at least argue that it would have been better to create a Jewish nation out of Germany in the late 1940s rather than in Palestine.

One must understand why that was out of the question for Jews at the time.

[Deus Naturae]

Israel is inherently a colonialist settler state oppressing and slowly shifting around the Arab population. Hopefully the tumor can be removed as painfully as possible.

...

[SPC]

And if you think not, what do you think should replace it? What should become of the Jewish population? What alternative would you have reccomended for the Jewish people following World War II in its stead?

Speaking from familial experience, I would have recommended that they emigrate to the United States or Great Britain if possible. Of course, that option wasn't exactly available to many Jews at the time, so it is hard to fault those in the circumstances for emigrating to Palestine instead. Of course, the Jews should have been more grateful of British hospitality, rather than evicting those that facilitated the migration (then again, it's not like the British had any right to be there either). Ideally, if the Jewish immigrants were to obtain their own state, the boundaries should have reflected actual settlement patterns. However, given the virtual certainty that the Arab population would find such an arrangement unacceptable, it is hard to be particularly upset that Israel was alloted a greater portion of Palestine than fairly deserved, given that such an arrangement left them in a better position for the inevitable civil war/invasion.

As I understand it, the Zionists purchased most of the land they acquired prior to 1947 and helped to make previously sparsely populated Palestine fertile, and thus they certainly have a much better claim to the area than the Arabs give them credit for.

As for the "Jewish state" question, I am surprised to find myself agreeing with dead0man on a foreign policy question. There is nothing particularly offensive about a state acknowledging the predominant cultural identity of its inhabitants, so long as respect is given to minorities within the state. Whether or not Israel fits that description is open to debate, but a "Jewish state" does not necessarily have to discriminate against Arabs or any other non-Jews, provided that Jewish is used as a matter of cultural identification rather than religious establishment.

In a modern context to oppose the existence of Israel would be even more preposterous than to oppose it in 1947. That said, Israel should act against its citizens colonizing the West Bank, as such actions are clearly less legitimate than the actions of the original Zionists.

[Sbane]

Those new states were areas of the world colonized by European powers and all they were getting is control over the lands they were already living in and had been for generations. Jewish people in any large numbers had not been living in Palestine for a long time, while Palestinians were. Palestinians were uprooted from that land to create a Jewish state. I can't understand why you can't see that this is a special case.

There wasn't large numbers of anybody living in the area at the time.  The state of Israel at it's creation was majority Jewish, just like all the other newly created states were majority Indian, Arab, Indonesian, Cambodian, etc.  There were also plenty of uprooted peoples too.  Few of them have grandchildren firing rockets at civilians.

Oh I know that Israel/Palestine is basically a wasteland and never had a large population, and I would argue still doesn't. Do you have a citation showing the land that was given to Israel was majority Jewish? In any case it wouldn't include all the land Israel took later, would it? Also, I feel the situation could have turned out better if Jews negotiated a place for themselves from the population already living there, as opposed to the British creating a state out of thin air. The Jewish immigration to Palestine was fairly peaceful until a Jewish state was created.

[TNF]

Israel should not exist. It should be replaced with a secular, democratic, and socialist republic. The Jewish population therein should be allowed full and equal rights under the new regime. I would have recommended that Zionism be jettisoned as a political project in favor of embracing a commitment to the emancipation of all people.

[dead0man]

Oh I know that Israel/Palestine is basically a wasteland and never had a large population, and I would argue still doesn't. Do you have a citation showing the land that was given to Israel was majority Jewish?

whatever cbs.gov.il is or this place.

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Correct.  "took" in a defensive war.

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Most of the land was owned by the state (previously the Ottomans and then, after they lost their empire, the UK), but Jewish investors did buy a LOT of land from the few private land holders.  Mostly wasteland (as most of the place was wasteland at the time) nobody really wanted.

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All of the nations surrounding Israel were created out of the same thin air, odd that we don't have a thread as to whether Jordan should exist or not.

[Blue3]

Israel says peace is dependent on everyone recognizing it as a "Jewish state."

Israel also says it's part of the West, wants itself held to  those higher standards, but equal to that of others in the West. It's unfortunate, but we expect a third world country to be less civilized. Israel is a first world country, and says it's civilized. Yet it says there will be no peace until Israel is recognized as a Jewish state.

[Nutmeg]

Those new states were areas of the world colonized by European powers and all they were getting is control over the lands they were already living in and had been for generations. Jewish people in any large numbers had not been living in Palestine for a long time, while Palestinians were. Palestinians were uprooted from that land to create a Jewish state. I can't understand why you can't see that this is a special case.

There wasn't large numbers of anybody living in the area at the time.  The state of Israel at it's creation was majority Jewish, just like all the other newly created states were majority Indian, Arab, Indonesian, Cambodian, etc.  There were also plenty of uprooted peoples too.  Few of them have grandchildren firing rockets at civilians.

What? 1,764,520 is not many people?

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Israel is inherently a colonialist settler state oppressing and slowly shifting around the Arab population. Hopefully the tumor can be removed as painfully as possible.

...

That's awkward. I meant to say painlessly.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Israel says peace is dependent on everyone recognizing it as a "Jewish state."

Israel also says it's part of the West, wants itself held to  those higher standards, but equal to that of others in the West. It's unfortunate, but we expect a third world country to be less civilized. Israel is a first world country, and says it's civilized. Yet it says there will be no peace until Israel is recognized as a Jewish state.

There are Western, developed countries with state religions.

[The Mikado]

The creation of a Jewish state in Palestine was a mistake, but one it's far, far too late to correct now.  Israel is here to stay.

[Simfan34]

The creation of a Jewish state in Palestine was a mistake, but one it's far, far too late to correct now.  Israel is here to stay.

I would agree with this, but the third question presents a real block- what should have been done instead? Mass immigration to the US, would have probably been a boon for us- but would it have really happened?