Islamic State vs. The World (except Canada)
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  Islamic State vs. The World (except Canada)
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Author Topic: Islamic State vs. The World (except Canada)  (Read 44467 times)
patrick1
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« Reply #325 on: October 06, 2014, 09:29:58 PM »

I really can't believe we are going to let Kobane fall....saddened.
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dead0man
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« Reply #326 on: October 07, 2014, 12:41:19 AM »

And just a few hundred feet from a NATO member.  Turkey continues to suck.
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Snowstalker Mk. II
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« Reply #327 on: October 07, 2014, 08:25:29 PM »
« Edited: October 07, 2014, 09:48:37 PM by Chairman/A.G./SoEA Snowstalker »

Hillary embraces Endless War.
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swl
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« Reply #328 on: October 08, 2014, 07:29:27 AM »

12 killed during Kurds/police clashes in Turkey.
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swl
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« Reply #329 on: October 08, 2014, 01:01:06 PM »
« Edited: October 08, 2014, 01:07:19 PM by swl »

Hollande now officially supports the idea of a bufferzone at the Syrian-Turkish border. I think we are going to hear more about this in the next days.

Turkey was already under heavy international pressure, after yesterday's riots they are now under heavy internal pressure too. If I am not wrong Erdogan's idea was to create a 25km bufferzone within Syrian territory that could also be used by refugees. Of course it serves Turkish interests: most of the border is controlled by the Kurds and Turkey would be really happy to retake it from them.
For Westerners, it's a very thin line where two of the main key-players against ISIS are also basically at war against each other. We like the Kurds, but Turkey remains a more valuable ally than them...

With Turkish troops on the ground + Western air strikes, it would be fairly easy to take this territory. But I guess that Turkey cannot simply invade Syria. A UN mandate would be great, but would Russia support it? A few months ago, they were still supporting Assad, but they have not been very vocal on the subject since then (they have obviously been busy with other things).

A weird agreement would have to be found; the Syrian Kurds and the PKK can work together, the Syrian Kurds and Turkey would have to work together, but the PKK and Turkey just hate each other.



On a more self-centered topic, French-Turkish relations have been quite bad during the last years, there is here a good opportunity to fix that. I think both countries have very similar positions in this conflict, differing slightly from the US position.



On a side note, besides the deadly riots in Turkey, there have been some clashes between Kurds and Islamists in Germany, with several injured. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pviV4-F825w
It reminds me of the pro-Palestinian vs pro-Israelis clashes in France a few weeks ago.
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Sbane
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« Reply #330 on: October 09, 2014, 12:36:48 PM »


That is likely what is necessary.
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patrick1
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« Reply #331 on: October 10, 2014, 06:50:39 PM »

...still very disappointed in our floundering IS "strategy".  You dont let a cancer grow.  The dominoes could really start to fall if we don't get our asses in gear here.
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palandio
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« Reply #332 on: October 11, 2014, 01:53:32 PM »

A weird agreement would have to be found; the Syrian Kurds and the PKK can work together, the Syrian Kurds and Turkey would have to work together, but the PKK and Turkey just hate each other.
Quite unrealistic, the PYD is very close to the PKK and the PKK is numerically much more relevant. Additionally the military challenges posed by the YPG and even the IS are probably relatively controllable in comparison to internal unrest incited by the PKK or IS sympathizers.
During the last month Erdoğan has been quite successful in killing the peace process with PKK. If he starts implementing his idea with the buffer zone, he will create a second internal enemy (IS sympathizers). And internal strife has always been an optimal chance for coup attempts.
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #333 on: October 13, 2014, 11:19:16 PM »

So why doesn't Turkey want to help this Kurd village?
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MaxQue
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« Reply #334 on: October 14, 2014, 12:47:43 AM »

So why doesn't Turkey want to help this Kurd village?

They are afraid of their own Muslims (which are strong Erdogan voters, too).
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #335 on: October 14, 2014, 12:52:48 AM »

So why doesn't Turkey want to help this Kurd village?

They are afraid of their own Muslims (which are strong Erdogan voters, too).

More likely because they dislike their own Kurds (who certainly don't vote for Erdogan).
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MaxQue
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« Reply #336 on: October 14, 2014, 01:12:16 AM »

So why doesn't Turkey want to help this Kurd village?

They are afraid of their own Muslims (which are strong Erdogan voters, too).

More likely because they dislike their own Kurds (who certainly don't vote for Erdogan).

I suspect than Erdogan prefer dealing with Kurds rather than with IS, through.
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Nhoj
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« Reply #337 on: October 14, 2014, 01:20:18 AM »

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29603272
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« Reply #338 on: October 14, 2014, 01:25:10 AM »
« Edited: October 14, 2014, 01:28:39 AM by ○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└ »


None of this would be necessary if certain politicians hadn't lied and voted for the Iraq war.

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The Chair of the Senate Intelligence Commission, Bob Graham, said everyone should read the intelligence report before voting. He voted nay. Hillary never read it.
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Mr. Morden
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« Reply #339 on: October 14, 2014, 01:34:50 AM »

So why doesn't Turkey want to help this Kurd village?

You could equally ask why doesn't the US or the UK or France want to help this Kurd village?  If it's going to take ground forces to save it, then why is it Turkey's responsibility alone to take care of it?
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MaxQue
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« Reply #340 on: October 14, 2014, 01:37:19 AM »

So why doesn't Turkey want to help this Kurd village?

You could equally ask why doesn't the US or the UK or France want to help this Kurd village?  If it's going to take ground forces to save it, then why is it Turkey's responsibility alone to take care of it?


People ask about Turkey because it's very near of their border.
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swl
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« Reply #341 on: October 14, 2014, 03:19:39 AM »
« Edited: October 14, 2014, 03:44:07 AM by swl »

So why doesn't Turkey want to help this Kurd village?
Because they don't want to choose between ISIS and the Kurds; they are equal evils for them. And Turkey cannot just invade Syria like that. A few weeks ago in Ukrain everyone considered this kind of behaviour unacceptable.

You could equally ask why doesn't the US or the UK or France want to help this Kurd village?  If it's going to take ground forces to save it, then why is it Turkey's responsibility alone to take care of it?
The Turkish army is literally few hundreds meter away from the town. At least they could allow volunteers to cross the border from Turkey to Syria.


The US is helping with air strikes, but they cannot achieve much in this urban environment.
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Mr. Morden
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« Reply #342 on: October 14, 2014, 04:00:39 AM »

So why doesn't Turkey want to help this Kurd village?

You could equally ask why doesn't the US or the UK or France want to help this Kurd village?  If it's going to take ground forces to save it, then why is it Turkey's responsibility alone to take care of it?


People ask about Turkey because it's very near of their border.

Exactly.  All the more reason why Turkey will be cautious about a ground invasion.  If things go badly, they can't just pack up and leave like the US could.  There's no reason for them to do a ground invasion on their own without help from allied countries.
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dead0man
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« Reply #343 on: October 14, 2014, 04:21:25 AM »

They won't even let the allies operate on their soil, what kind of help could the rest of us give them?.... apart from air cover and we'd certainly give them that and they could do it themselves AND they wouldn't need that much air cover 'cause it's ISIS and not a "real" military.

but to be clear, you think the reason Turkey doesn't protect this village is because they couldn't just back out/wouldn't get help?
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swl
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« Reply #344 on: October 14, 2014, 06:11:11 AM »

Shiite militias committing war crimes against Sunni civilians in their fight against ISIL in Iraq... http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/state-backed-iraq-shiite-militias-commit-war-crimes-amnesty.aspx?pageID=238&nID=72935&NewsCatID=352 This is endless.
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Mr. Morden
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« Reply #345 on: October 14, 2014, 07:21:31 AM »

They won't even let the allies operate on their soil,

I was going to say that they just reached a deal to let the allies launch air strikes from their soil.  That's what Susan Rice said yesterday.  But now I just saw that Turkey has denied this, so I don't know what's going on there.

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No.  Obviously, there are multitude of reasons, many of which we would consider bad.  For example, they committed to helping forces opposed to Assad, and now don't want to do Assad's dirty work for him.

The point is, the whole thing's kind of a mess.  Turkey getting engaged in a war along its border wouldn't necessarily just be limited to this one village.  Why?  Because this whole thing seems to involve the allies lurching from one crisis to the next.  The western powers say that they'll do air strikes, but rely on forces within Iraq and Syria to fight on the ground.  Then when a single Kurdish village on the Turkish border is threatened, they ask why Turkey isn't sending in ground forces.  Umm….since when were they abandoning the idea of just letting the forces within Iraq and Syria be the boots on the ground?  Then you've got France talking about wanting to set up a humanitarian corridor, with the US showing reluctance.  It doesn't sound like all the allies are on the same page.

So yeah, I wish Turkey would act too, but I can't really single them out for particular blame when none of the other allies is volunteering ground troops of their own.

Out of curiosity, are you suggesting that the US also commit combat troops to Syria, or would you stick with the Obama line of air power only?
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Gustaf
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« Reply #346 on: October 14, 2014, 07:30:36 AM »

So why doesn't Turkey want to help this Kurd village?

They are afraid of their own Muslims (which are strong Erdogan voters, too).

More likely because they dislike their own Kurds (who certainly don't vote for Erdogan).

Actually the Erdogan majority depends on at least passive support from Kurds who prefer AKP over the CHP.
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dead0man
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« Reply #347 on: October 14, 2014, 08:19:29 AM »

Out of curiosity, are you suggesting that the US also commit combat troops to Syria, or would you stick with the Obama line of air power only?
I'd do what Obama is doing, that is putting Special Forces on the ground then denying that we have any ground forces on the ground.  I wouldn't toss an Army division in there or anything, but I'd be giving any and all old, but functioning equipment to the people in the region willing to fight and who aren't likely to Bin Laden us in a few years.  Mainly the Kurds and Jordanians.

Nothing good will come from us further sticking our weener in the Suni/Shia conflict (I know, we've been doing that since WWII) but if we can keep it to a slow boil instead of burning out of control we should.
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« Reply #348 on: October 14, 2014, 12:49:56 PM »


None of this would be necessary if certain politicians hadn't lied and voted for the Iraq war.

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The Chair of the Senate Intelligence Commission, Bob Graham, said everyone should read the intelligence report before voting. He voted nay. Hillary never read it.


I completely agree with you. Unfortunately, what is done is done.
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Mr. Morden
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« Reply #349 on: October 15, 2014, 01:07:53 AM »

Here's a good, lengthy discussion of Turkey and ISIS:

http://bloggingheads.tv/videos/31210
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