Islamic State vs. The World (except Canada)
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Author Topic: Islamic State vs. The World (except Canada)  (Read 44475 times)
Indy Texas
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« Reply #225 on: September 13, 2014, 08:13:40 PM »

I'll just chime in and point out that the number of Western hostages the Syrian government has beheaded is still zero.

Those of you who still want another "regime change" are welcome to give one good reason why we should enable the Islamists to seize the other half of Syria.
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Cory
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« Reply #226 on: September 13, 2014, 08:30:57 PM »


Damn them. Everyone knows good and well this isn't really about about the hostages. I mean c'mon what do they take us for? And they won't even let us use our base in Airbase in Incirlik to conduct operations. Ingrates.
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Indy Texas
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« Reply #227 on: September 13, 2014, 09:00:09 PM »


Damn them. Everyone knows good and well this isn't really about about the hostages. I mean c'mon what do they take us for? And they won't even let us use our base in Airbase in Incirlik to conduct operations. Ingrates.


We should get with Britain/France/et al and threaten to expel Turkey from NATO unless they cooperate with us on this.

They can either be a Western country or they can be a neo-Ottoman Islamist-appeasing pseudo-empire. They need to choose one or the other.
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Comrade Funk
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« Reply #228 on: September 14, 2014, 01:18:04 AM »

Many of them will come back disappointed and will try to go back to their normal life, when they realize the utopia they are looking for does not exist... They should be allowed to do so, if they accept to remain under surveillance for a while.
No they shouldn't.
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Beet
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« Reply #229 on: September 14, 2014, 03:02:40 AM »

I'll just chime in and point out that the number of Western hostages the Syrian government has beheaded is still zero.

Those of you who still want another "regime change" are welcome to give one good reason why we should enable the Islamists to seize the other half of Syria.

The Syrian government is why ISIS exists in the first place. Brutal violence begets extremist politics.
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Atlas Has Shrugged
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« Reply #230 on: September 14, 2014, 11:12:34 AM »

I'll just chime in and point out that the number of Western hostages the Syrian government has beheaded is still zero.

Those of you who still want another "regime change" are welcome to give one good reason why we should enable the Islamists to seize the other half of Syria.

The Syrian government is why ISIS exists in the first place. Brutal violence begets extremist politics.
Your confusing Syria with the Bush administration.
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Beet
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« Reply #231 on: September 14, 2014, 01:05:49 PM »

I'll just chime in and point out that the number of Western hostages the Syrian government has beheaded is still zero.

Those of you who still want another "regime change" are welcome to give one good reason why we should enable the Islamists to seize the other half of Syria.

The Syrian government is why ISIS exists in the first place. Brutal violence begets extremist politics.
Your confusing Syria with the Bush administration.

Nope.

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It was your friend Bashar who revived them.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #232 on: September 14, 2014, 02:15:51 PM »


Damn them. Everyone knows good and well this isn't really about about the hostages. I mean c'mon what do they take us for? And they won't even let us use our base in Airbase in Incirlik to conduct operations. Ingrates.


We should get with Britain/France/et al and threaten to expel Turkey from NATO unless they cooperate with us on this.

They can either be a Western country or they can be a neo-Ottoman Islamist-appeasing pseudo-empire. They need to choose one or the other.

Expelling them isn't likely to make the former more probable. If we want Turkey to bend to the will of the West as opposed to doing its own thing, we'd need to re-inspire some "postmodernism" in the remainder of the Turkish General Staff that has not yet been purged.
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dead0man
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« Reply #233 on: September 14, 2014, 08:37:53 PM »

Aussies sending some birds, 400 dudes to keep them flying and 200 SF
8 Super Hornets
1 AWACs
1 refueling bird
200 "advisers"
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Atlas Has Shrugged
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« Reply #234 on: September 14, 2014, 08:56:54 PM »

I'll just chime in and point out that the number of Western hostages the Syrian government has beheaded is still zero.

Those of you who still want another "regime change" are welcome to give one good reason why we should enable the Islamists to seize the other half of Syria.

The Syrian government is why ISIS exists in the first place. Brutal violence begets extremist politics.
Your confusing Syria with the Bush administration.

Nope.

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It was your friend Bashar who revived them.
How did Bashar revive them? They exist as blowback against the Assad regime, yet the Islamic rebels who came before them were only marginally more moderate. Should he have surrendered the country to them? Furthermore, ISIS would literally never had a chance to exist in the first place if we let Saddam crack the whip.
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Blue3
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« Reply #235 on: September 14, 2014, 11:32:48 PM »

Assad has been helping the US in some key areas, and his narrative is what done are now buying into.
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Beet
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« Reply #236 on: September 15, 2014, 05:02:32 PM »

How did Bashar revive them? They exist as blowback against the Assad regime, yet the Islamic rebels who came before them were only marginally more moderate.

They were more moderate enough to spend the first 3 months of 2014 primarily fighting each other even more than the regime.

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He should never have opened fire on peaceful, pro-democracy protesters in 2011 (who included many Alawites). Mubarak went out with dignity. Now "his people" (meaning the Army) are even back in charge. Assad should have done the same.

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Well considering it was founded in 1999, it literally did exist when Saddam was in power. The Iraq war provided it with an opportunity; so did the Syrian war. Everyone agrees that the Iraq war was a mistake. But the results of Syria must be pinned on the Syrian government.
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All Along The Watchtower
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« Reply #237 on: September 15, 2014, 05:51:14 PM »

>>>atlas forum

>>>defending brutal dictators
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Deus Naturae
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« Reply #238 on: September 15, 2014, 06:13:27 PM »

>>>atlas forum

>>>defending brutal dictators
What are you talking about? All I see in this thread is Beet accusing people of being anti-'murican freedom-hating dictator-lovers for not agreeing with him on Syria.
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Cory
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« Reply #239 on: September 15, 2014, 08:20:55 PM »

Do people realize that frankly and realistically it doesn't matter if Assad targeted the moderates to leave the Islamists as his only real enemies? It's like saying we shouldn't work with the Soviets in 1942 because they allowed Germany to take over Western Europe and Poland/The Balkans.

It literally doesn't change the calculus from this point on at all. Unless you have time travel or something. The facts on the ground are the facts on the ground. The fact of the matter is that the Assad Regime is the only serious hope for a secular and modern Syria.

I mean c'mon is it really that hard for some people to have just a little bit of realism in their foreign policy outlook? Things aren't always ideal and sometimes the Devil you know is better then the one you don't.


No, he didn't.
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Beet
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« Reply #240 on: September 16, 2014, 01:37:23 AM »

>>>atlas forum

>>>defending brutal dictators
What are you talking about? All I see in this thread is Beet accusing people of being anti-'murican freedom-hating dictator-lovers for not agreeing with him on Syria.

What are you talking about? I've never accused anyone of being an "anti-'murican freedom-hating dictator-lover." The problem with supporting Assad today, as the White House has pointed out, is that it then looks like the U.S. is taking the Shiite side in a Sunni/Shiite civil war. The reason why I.S.I.S. has been successful in the first place is that they have been able to claim to be the only ones representing the Sunnis. Many Sunnis who detest their extremism either support or tolerate them solely for that reason.
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jfern
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« Reply #241 on: September 16, 2014, 01:44:07 AM »

I'll just chime in and point out that the number of Western hostages the Syrian government has beheaded is still zero.

Those of you who still want another "regime change" are welcome to give one good reason why we should enable the Islamists to seize the other half of Syria.

The Military-Industrial Complex could use another $1 trillion to try to make things even worse.
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pendragon
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« Reply #242 on: September 16, 2014, 01:56:40 AM »

Even if we look at Syria through the "liberal-internationalist" lens where everything is about genocide-prevention, anyone who knows the first thing about the Syrian war is that if the rebels, "moderate" or otherwise, win, it is a certainty that there will be a genocide of Syrian Alawites, Christians, Druze, and possibly Kurds.  On the other hand, it isn't possible for Assad to perpetrate a genocide on the Sunnis who are 2/3rds of the population.

So, by liberal-internationalist criteria - that prioritize the minorities' lives over the majority's feels - it is necessary to support Assad or at least allow him to win, in order to prevent a massive genocide.

(And, as others have pointed out, from a realist point of view, IS is a massive threat to American interests while Assad isn't much of one at all.  Assad is the only force in Syria capable of defeating IS, the only one willing to vigorously press the offensive against IS until it is defeated and to continue to vigorously suppress it afterwards, and the only one mutually unwilling to come to some sort of accommodation with IS.  So realism dictates hitching your cart to Assad as well).
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #243 on: September 16, 2014, 09:00:05 AM »
« Edited: September 16, 2014, 09:26:36 AM by True Federalist »

Assad will only press the attack on ISIL when the moderates are all gone in the belief that so-called realists will then back him for the reasons you describe pendragon.  The sad thing is he might be right, but that doesn't mean that we should abandon the moderates and start backing Assad yet.
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Beet
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« Reply #244 on: September 16, 2014, 09:35:09 AM »

Even if we look at Syria through the "liberal-internationalist" lens where everything is about genocide-prevention, anyone who knows the first thing about the Syrian war is that if the rebels, "moderate" or otherwise, win, it is a certainty that there will be a genocide of Syrian Alawites, Christians, Druze, and possibly Kurds.  On the other hand, it isn't possible for Assad to perpetrate a genocide on the Sunnis who are 2/3rds of the population.

So, by liberal-internationalist criteria - that prioritize the minorities' lives over the majority's feels - it is necessary to support Assad or at least allow him to win, in order to prevent a massive genocide.

(And, as others have pointed out, from a realist point of view, IS is a massive threat to American interests while Assad isn't much of one at all.  Assad is the only force in Syria capable of defeating IS, the only one willing to vigorously press the offensive against IS until it is defeated and to continue to vigorously suppress it afterwards, and the only one mutually unwilling to come to some sort of accommodation with IS.  So realism dictates hitching your cart to Assad as well).

I'm not at all sure Assad is capable of defeating IS, or particularly willing. He's most likely happy just holding the western population centers of Syria, the so-called Alawite crescent stretching from Damascus to the coast, plus Aleppo if he can get it (which so far he can't). The moderate rebels have shown more success against IS in the battlefield: From January through March, they dealt IS severe defeats and nearly drove them out of central Syria. It was only the arrival of new equippment and moral from Iraq which turned the tide.

Undoubtedly, due to the horrific massacres carried out by Alawite, Druze and Christian militias, there will certainly be some desire for retaliation. The situation these groups are in is of their own doing, and the U.S. is under no obligation to help them. With that said, it doesn't have to be a genocide. If the United States extracts promises of postwar reconciliation makes clear that Western support is dependent on good behavior, the Western-dependent rebels can be dissuaded from excessive retaliation.
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politicus
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« Reply #245 on: September 16, 2014, 09:54:35 AM »

Even if we look at Syria through the "liberal-internationalist" lens where everything is about genocide-prevention, anyone who knows the first thing about the Syrian war is that if the rebels, "moderate" or otherwise, win, it is a certainty that there will be a genocide of Syrian Alawites, Christians, Druze, and possibly Kurds.  On the other hand, it isn't possible for Assad to perpetrate a genocide on the Sunnis who are 2/3rds of the population.

So, by liberal-internationalist criteria - that prioritize the minorities' lives over the majority's feels - it is necessary to support Assad or at least allow him to win, in order to prevent a massive genocide.

(And, as others have pointed out, from a realist point of view, IS is a massive threat to American interests while Assad isn't much of one at all.  Assad is the only force in Syria capable of defeating IS, the only one willing to vigorously press the offensive against IS until it is defeated and to continue to vigorously suppress it afterwards, and the only one mutually unwilling to come to some sort of accommodation with IS.  So realism dictates hitching your cart to Assad as well).

I'm not at all sure Assad is capable of defeating IS, or particularly willing. He's most likely happy just holding the western population centers of Syria, the so-called Alawite crescent stretching from Damascus to the coast, plus Aleppo if he can get it (which so far he can't). The moderate rebels have shown more success against IS in the battlefield: From January through March, they dealt IS severe defeats and nearly drove them out of central Syria. It was only the arrival of new equippment and moral from Iraq which turned the tide.

Undoubtedly, due to the horrific massacres carried out by Alawite, Druze and Christian militias, there will certainly be some desire for retaliation. The situation these groups are in is of their own doing, and the U.S. is under no obligation to help them. With that said, it doesn't have to be a genocide. If the United States extracts promises of postwar reconciliation makes clear that Western support is dependent on good behavior, the Western-dependent rebels can be dissuaded from excessive retaliation.

The idea that minority groups are collectively responsible for what some militias are doing is absurd.
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Beet
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« Reply #246 on: September 16, 2014, 10:09:38 AM »

Even if we look at Syria through the "liberal-internationalist" lens where everything is about genocide-prevention, anyone who knows the first thing about the Syrian war is that if the rebels, "moderate" or otherwise, win, it is a certainty that there will be a genocide of Syrian Alawites, Christians, Druze, and possibly Kurds.  On the other hand, it isn't possible for Assad to perpetrate a genocide on the Sunnis who are 2/3rds of the population.

So, by liberal-internationalist criteria - that prioritize the minorities' lives over the majority's feels - it is necessary to support Assad or at least allow him to win, in order to prevent a massive genocide.

(And, as others have pointed out, from a realist point of view, IS is a massive threat to American interests while Assad isn't much of one at all.  Assad is the only force in Syria capable of defeating IS, the only one willing to vigorously press the offensive against IS until it is defeated and to continue to vigorously suppress it afterwards, and the only one mutually unwilling to come to some sort of accommodation with IS.  So realism dictates hitching your cart to Assad as well).

I'm not at all sure Assad is capable of defeating IS, or particularly willing. He's most likely happy just holding the western population centers of Syria, the so-called Alawite crescent stretching from Damascus to the coast, plus Aleppo if he can get it (which so far he can't). The moderate rebels have shown more success against IS in the battlefield: From January through March, they dealt IS severe defeats and nearly drove them out of central Syria. It was only the arrival of new equippment and moral from Iraq which turned the tide.

Undoubtedly, due to the horrific massacres carried out by Alawite, Druze and Christian militias, there will certainly be some desire for retaliation. The situation these groups are in is of their own doing, and the U.S. is under no obligation to help them. With that said, it doesn't have to be a genocide. If the United States extracts promises of postwar reconciliation makes clear that Western support is dependent on good behavior, the Western-dependent rebels can be dissuaded from excessive retaliation.

The idea that minority groups are collectively responsible for what some militias are doing is absurd.

No more absurd than the idea that the whole Syrian opposition is collectively responsible for some extremists.
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politicus
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« Reply #247 on: September 16, 2014, 10:26:00 AM »

Even if we look at Syria through the "liberal-internationalist" lens where everything is about genocide-prevention, anyone who knows the first thing about the Syrian war is that if the rebels, "moderate" or otherwise, win, it is a certainty that there will be a genocide of Syrian Alawites, Christians, Druze, and possibly Kurds.  On the other hand, it isn't possible for Assad to perpetrate a genocide on the Sunnis who are 2/3rds of the population.

So, by liberal-internationalist criteria - that prioritize the minorities' lives over the majority's feels - it is necessary to support Assad or at least allow him to win, in order to prevent a massive genocide.

(And, as others have pointed out, from a realist point of view, IS is a massive threat to American interests while Assad isn't much of one at all.  Assad is the only force in Syria capable of defeating IS, the only one willing to vigorously press the offensive against IS until it is defeated and to continue to vigorously suppress it afterwards, and the only one mutually unwilling to come to some sort of accommodation with IS.  So realism dictates hitching your cart to Assad as well).

I'm not at all sure Assad is capable of defeating IS, or particularly willing. He's most likely happy just holding the western population centers of Syria, the so-called Alawite crescent stretching from Damascus to the coast, plus Aleppo if he can get it (which so far he can't). The moderate rebels have shown more success against IS in the battlefield: From January through March, they dealt IS severe defeats and nearly drove them out of central Syria. It was only the arrival of new equipment and moral from Iraq which turned the tide.

Undoubtedly, due to the horrific massacres carried out by Alawite, Druze and Christian militias, there will certainly be some desire for retaliation. The situation these groups are in is of their own doing, and the U.S. is under no obligation to help them. With that said, it doesn't have to be a genocide. If the United States extracts promises of postwar reconciliation makes clear that Western support is dependent on good behavior, the Western-dependent rebels can be dissuaded from excessive retaliation.

The idea that minority groups are collectively responsible for what some militias are doing is absurd.

No more absurd than the idea that the whole Syrian opposition is collectively responsible for some extremists.

Of course not, but that doesn't make it any better.
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Miamiu1027
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« Reply #248 on: September 16, 2014, 06:10:28 PM »

it's amazing how easily the war machine can be fired up.  every news affiliate is running stories "ISIS recruiting Americans and smuggling across Mexican border?  details at 7"  this after Iraq-2003 became the most unpopular war in the history of post-industrial revolution imperial society.  it helps that it's a Democrat, otherwise liberals would be asking the more uncomfortable questions, while Republicans are only capable of thinking of it as a "bad investment"
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jfern
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« Reply #249 on: September 18, 2014, 05:23:22 AM »

it's amazing how easily the war machine can be fired up.  every news affiliate is running stories "ISIS recruiting Americans and smuggling across Mexican border?  details at 7"  this after Iraq-2003 became the most unpopular war in the history of post-industrial revolution imperial society.  it helps that it's a Democrat, otherwise liberals would be asking the more uncomfortable questions, while Republicans are only capable of thinking of it as a "bad investment"

It looks like ISIS will be used as an excuse to go after Assad. We'll give arms to some "moderate" Al Qaeda affiliated rebel groups. I'm sure things will go great there.
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