Islamic State vs. The World (except Canada)

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

I'm glad we dropped humanitarian aid, but I oppose the bombing.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

I hope this backfires. I really do. We need to learn a lesson. I guarentee that when the bombs begin to fall we are going to nail a hospital or a school, and ISIS's ranks will only continue to swell.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

I hope this backfires. I really do. We need to learn a lesson. I guarentee that when the bombs begin to fall we are going to nail a hospital or a school, and ISIS's ranks will only continue to swell.

So you'd want Islamists to continue their slaughter of Yezidis, Christians, and so forth just to spite the American foreign policy establishment?

The reason these people are being slaughtered in the first place is because we went into Iraq in the first place.

I hope this backfires. I really do. We need to learn a lesson. I guarantee that when the bombs begin to fall we are going to nail a hospital or a school, and ISIS's ranks will only continue to swell.

So...are you saying you want us to nail a hospital or a school and swell the ranks of ISIS to make a point?

I don't hope we nail a hospital, but I guarantee you that it will happen because of general incompetence. We, like any nation, have made plenty of f[inks]ups during war. But that is not what I meant by hoping this mission backfires and I can see how you read it that way.

I hope this backfires. I really do. We need to learn a lesson. I guarantee that when the bombs begin to fall we are going to nail a hospital or a school, and ISIS's ranks will only continue to swell.

You hope this backfires?  WTF is wrong with you?  That's just as bad has hoping the "other" side's President fails.  It's disgusting.  Good things happening (or bad things not happening) is always better than scoring political "points".

When I was little, I always tried to touch the iron while my mom was doing laundry. It looked cool and I wanted to do it. So one day, she let me touch it. And I never again tried to touch the ironing board.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

The reason these people are being slaughtered in the first place is because we went into Iraq in the first place.

People were being slaughtered in Iraq BEFORE we went in there.  You don't really think everybody got along just fine before Saddam invaded Kuwait do you?  You don't think really think that they got along between the Gulf Wars do you?  Saddam was murdering hundreds of thousands in Iraq.  I don't know why this was forgotten.

I know all about the crimes of the Hussein regime. That doesn't change the fact that it wasn't our problem.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

The reason these people are being slaughtered in the first place is because we went into Iraq in the first place.

People were being slaughtered in Iraq BEFORE we went in there.  You don't really think everybody got along just fine before Saddam invaded Kuwait do you?  You don't think really think that they got along between the Gulf Wars do you?  Saddam was murdering hundreds of thousands in Iraq.  I don't know why this was forgotten.

I know all about the crimes of the Hussein regime. That doesn't change the fact that it wasn't our problem.

That's an acceptable position to take, but HOPING an attack fails and civilians are killed just to teach your own country a "lesson" is a HORRIBLE thing to think.  I just want you to realize that.

I don't hope civilians are killed. I already know it is a foregone conclusion, which is part of the reason I am so vocally against this.

I mean it's clear that ChairmanSanchez lacks any sort of conscience or sense of moral awareness so I doubt pointing out Saddam's brutality would make any kind of effect.

What about the fighters in ISIS? What about their moral conscience? I mean, if we can just declare ourselves the good guys, can't they? I don't know where Snowstalker is in this thread, but I imagine when he starts to post he will, for once, be completely right. We can’t arbitrarily decide who is and who isn’t right in a situation that doesn’t affect American interests.

Are you going to sign up and fight if we go beyond air strikes and put troops on the ground? I know dead0man, who has served our country and is a person I greatly admire would, and that is why I respect his opinion on this matter even though I disagree. So far, all I am reading from everyone aside from dead0man is chickenhawking and arm-chair quarterbacking.

I was going to say "let the panty-wasting" commence... buuuut I see it already has.

Sadly, Sanchez's understanding of this is very very thin and is a pretty typical knee-jerk Libertarian reaction.

"Not our problem" ... it's remarkable how simplistic the Paulite (etc) philosophy is.

It’s very, very simple. That is the beauty of it. Internationalism has worked out soooo well for the world so far, hasn’t it?

Good. If this helps stop the genocide of the Yazidi people, than it needs to be done.

I certainly feel that the air drops are important and should be continued.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

What about the fighters in ISIS? What about their moral conscience? I mean, if we can just declare ourselves the good guys, can't they?

That's moral relativistic nonsense.  ISIS can declare themselves the Queen of England, but it doesn't make them so.  Nobody who engages in mass genocide and forces conversions to their particular religion by the sword can claim the moral high ground in the 21st century.

Can we really claim moral high ground?

Brushing that under the carpet under the banner of "it didn't work, therefore we should let these people be hunted down and massacred" is the height of moral cowardice.

But I get the attraction of "not my problem"... it's simple, clean it just happens to be completely morally bankrupt. But of course in that Universe, "I've got mine (healthcare, education, security)... f*** them" is the all-encompassing credo.

We are not letting them get hunted down and slaughtered. If we can drop food and water, we can surely drop in equipment for them to defend themselves much like we did in Syria.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Sanchez, you really think that we can't claim moral high ground from ISIS? This is a group too extreme even for Al Qaeda- a group that cuts heads off for fun...

Do I personally feel that? No. But from a policy stand point, who is the arbitrator of who is and who isn't right and wrong these days? Radical Islam are more complex than “they kill those who disagree” and “they hate freedom.” We are never going to stomp out radical Islam, and we might just fan it’s flames like we did when we first invaded in ’03.

I hope this backfires. I really do. We need to learn a lesson. I guarentee that when the bombs begin to fall we are going to nail a hospital or a school, and ISIS's ranks will only continue to swell.

Ok Snowstalker.

The great irony is that he is likely the one person who is going to be making sense in this thread.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

About time those scum got this treatment.

Ah, yes, Iraqi civilians living under ISIS occupation...what scum! I guess they're just all the same to people like you.

Please show me where I implied that.

They're the ones being killed by these bombings, so...

And a lot of them are clamouring for intervention, so...

A lot of them are clamouring for ISIS as well. ISIS couldn't mount the campaign they have mounted without some civilian support. And I doubt Gallup is going to poll Iraqi's in occupied territory on who they like and don't like...

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

I don't know why you guys are complaining about a half-inch of scrolling.

And we'll be on page 4 soon enough.

Or, you know, you could FIX it....geez.  Some people's kids.

Not to get off topic, but I wish somebody would address Adam's signature for this very reason.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

[img width=640]... close tag.
Also, Turkey is now supporting the Peshmerga. Let me repeat that for you. Turkey is supporting the Peshmerga. Iran, Iraq, Syria, Turkey, the Kurds, Jordan, Lebanon, Israel, and the US all are united in opposition to ISIS. Surely this is probably indicative of who the objectively bad people are. I mean, you don't see this sort of unity outside of alien invasion movies. Although I suppose if we were invaded by aliens Sanchez would be saying "we don't know who's morally superior here!" or something like that.

Do you care about our southern border as much as you do the Kurds? Because if you feel threatened by ISIS, you ought to be rather worried about some of the Cartels down south who have done things that can give ISIS a run for their money.....

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Says who?  ISIS is the target of these bombings, not civilians.  The civilians were chased up a mountain by ISIS fighters.  They are being killed by ISIS, not "these bombings".  It's not hard to differentiate between the people with guns on the bottom of the mountain and the civilians on top.

The refugees on a top of a mountain was one incidence and that case only involved an aid drop. Generally, bombing towns is going to result in considerable civilian casualties.

Who says we are bombing towns?  Who says bombings can't be precision targeted at ISIS strongholds?  Who says there needs to be considerable civilian casualties when bombing?  There doesn't need to be.

You can't avoid civilian casaulties in a situation like this, and ISIS will have no trouble in finding both willing and unwilling human shields.

[img width=640]... close tag.
Also, Turkey is now supporting the Peshmerga. Let me repeat that for you. Turkey is supporting the Peshmerga. Iran, Iraq, Syria, Turkey, the Kurds, Jordan, Lebanon, Israel, and the US all are united in opposition to ISIS. Surely this is probably indicative of who the objectively bad people are. I mean, you don't see this sort of unity outside of alien invasion movies. Although I suppose if we were invaded by aliens Sanchez would be saying "we don't know who's morally superior here!" or something like that.

Do you care about our southern border as much as you do the Kurds? Because if you feel threatened by ISIS, you ought to be rather worried about some of the Cartels down south who have done things that can give ISIS a run for their money.....

I was not aware that the drug cartels were marching on Mexico City.

Nor was I aware that busloads of children were shooting entire towns' male populations dead.

Child soldiers are being used quite openly in Mexico, so that point is moot.....

And I would argue that the Drug War has already begun to creep not towards Mexico City but rather towards our own border. It is clearly our biggest national security threat, not some rag-tag army in Iraq.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Anyone hear the ISIS statement about raising the green flag over the White House? It was hilarious. They're deluded because they captured Mosul.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Given the current context of ISIS and its immediate threat to certain minority groups, I'm not entirely opposed to the strikes in and of themselves; however, anything beyond this is almost certain to backfire, as have plenty of "police actions" in the past.

Be careful. Warning that this is certain to backfire automatically means you want a hospital to explode.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Given the current context of ISIS and its immediate threat to certain minority groups, I'm not entirely opposed to the strikes in and of themselves; however, anything beyond this is almost certain to backfire, as have plenty of "police actions" in the past.

Be careful. Warning that this is certain to backfire automatically means you want a hospital to explode.

... except that you literally said that.

I hope this backfires. I really do. We need to learn a lesson. I guarentee that when the bombs begin to fall we are going to nail a hospital or a school, and ISIS's ranks will only continue to swell.

emphasis mine

I know you're smarter than this. I did NOT hope that we would hit a hospital, but I know we will. I'm hoping that we learn a lesson about meddling in the Middle East. I'm hoping the powers that be will get burned on this, but it's there choice on how that will happen. They can stick their hands into fire or they can stick it into boiling water.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Yeah, it might not have been what you meant, but it is what you said.

I'll concede that it was poorly worded.

Wonder if the reduced activity near Mosul has anything to do with the dam.

Again, this may be a move to keep their forces under protection. We won't bomb the dam, so if they corale close enough to it, they're going to stay safe. And if we do bomb them and manage to not destroy the dam, there is a chance that they might destroy it. If IIRC, Wolf Blitzer said that this dam is a huge source of Baghdad's electricity.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

I think America's preferred future place in international relations should be as this almighty Sky God that rains fire on those who goes against its will but never directly imposes itself on the situation.

There are already people in Nevada who come into work, fly a drone in Afghanistan, maybe kill a few Afghans, and then go home, detached from the war.

Sounds like a good gig for Joe Republic.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Well, at the very least the Kurds' habit of allowing women to carry and use AK-47's can be seen as a sign that they aren't relegating females to the sole role of faithful wives and childbearers.

Relative Freedom-fighters.

I've met an Iraq veteran about eight years ago who told me that he was attacked by a female insurent who pulled an assault rifle out hidden under he burqa. It has been a long time (he was my fourth grade teachers son) since that conversation happened, so I can't remember the exact details of course.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Well, at the very least the Kurds' habit of allowing women to carry and use AK-47's can be seen as a sign that they aren't relegating females to the sole role of faithful wives and childbearers.

Relative Freedom-fighters.

I've met an Iraq veteran about eight years ago who told me that he was attacked by a female insurent who pulled an assault rifle out hidden under he burqa. It has been a long time (he was my fourth grade teachers son) since that conversation happened, so I can't remember the exact details of course.

Female Peshmerga troops usually don't wear burqas though, but regular uniforms... which looks like this:

IIRC (and I may indeed be wrong, keep in mind this was a long time ago), his unit was attacked by Islamists. The female fighter was burqa clad. I don't know if ISIS allows females to join their ranks, but some of the other Islamist groups might.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

NBC is reporting that a third hostage-this one British-has been beheaded by ISIS. PMQ is going to be interesting on Wednesday.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

I'll just chime in and point out that the number of Western hostages the Syrian government has beheaded is still zero.

Those of you who still want another "regime change" are welcome to give one good reason why we should enable the Islamists to seize the other half of Syria.

The Syrian government is why ISIS exists in the first place. Brutal violence begets extremist politics.

Your confusing Syria with the Bush administration.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

I'll just chime in and point out that the number of Western hostages the Syrian government has beheaded is still zero.

Those of you who still want another "regime change" are welcome to give one good reason why we should enable the Islamists to seize the other half of Syria.

The Syrian government is why ISIS exists in the first place. Brutal violence begets extremist politics.

Your confusing Syria with the Bush administration.

Nope.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

It was your friend Bashar who revived them.

How did Bashar revive them? They exist as blowback against the Assad regime, yet the Islamic rebels who came before them were only marginally more moderate. Should he have surrendered the country to them? Furthermore, ISIS would literally never had a chance to exist in the first place if we let Saddam crack the whip.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

it's amazing how easily the war machine can be fired up.  every news affiliate is running stories "ISIS recruiting Americans and smuggling across Mexican border?  details at 7"  this after Iraq-2003 became the most unpopular war in the history of post-industrial revolution imperial society.  it helps that it's a Democrat, otherwise liberals would be asking the more uncomfortable questions, while Republicans are only capable of thinking of it as a "bad investment"

It looks like ISIS will be used as an excuse to go after Assad. We'll give arms to some "moderate" Al Qaeda affiliated rebel groups. I'm sure things will go great there.

Wow, you really have no clue.

I heard Chuck Hagel say quite clearly that we are only arming rebel groups at war with both Assad and ISIS. So, this is an indirect attempt to oust him as well.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Good for Canada. Why should they tie themselves down in this clusterfink?

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Suppose the title is no longer appropriate.

Beat me to it. Seems Canada is the first Western nation to suffer a serious attack inspired by ISIS.

Belgium?