St Louis police murder scandal (PLUS: riots, idiotic press conferences, etc.)
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  St Louis police murder scandal (PLUS: riots, idiotic press conferences, etc.)
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Author Topic: St Louis police murder scandal (PLUS: riots, idiotic press conferences, etc.)  (Read 45696 times)
dead0man
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« Reply #400 on: August 26, 2014, 12:49:03 PM »


If he attacked the cop, he deserves to get shot.  If he didn't, the cop should spend a long long time in jail.

Do you believe that Brown attacked the cop?
I'm 95% certain he tried to keep the cop from getting out of the car.  I don't know if that counts as "attacking" or not, but it's certainly not something a person should do, it's not going to lead to good things for them.

(and the first person to say "keeping a cop from getting out of the car shouldn't be an immediate death sentence" is going on ignore)
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I'd be shocked if it happened exactly as anybody said it went down...ummm...that's not clear.  Let me try again.  I wouldn't trust any single person's story 100%.  Especially after they let their defenses or biases set in.  People see things wrong, people see things happen that didn't happen and often miss important details.
Also note that this encounter happened during day time, the policeman was not aware, as you are, that he shoplifted cigarrillos and pushed the store owner and so was a dangerous criminal who is responsible for any violence done to him
He said he didn't know he was the suspect when he frist stopped and told them to get out of the street.  He then went on to say that during the exchange of words he noticed the stolen items in Brown's hand and put 2 and 2 together.
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That doesn't make any sense, BROWN knew he was a targeted criminal and would have assumed the cop thought so too.  What would make you think otherwise?
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Yes, which is why we haven't just taken the cop's word for it.  Which is why there are investigations by 2 (3?) different organizations.
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Why did the cop wait 6 years to "exercise his power"?  Why would a sane and sober criminal walk down the middle of the street minutes after committing a felony?
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Brittain33
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« Reply #401 on: August 26, 2014, 01:14:52 PM »
« Edited: August 26, 2014, 01:28:25 PM by Gravis Marketing »

Why did the cop wait 6 years to "exercise his power"?

Because even cops who have a bad relationship with the communities they police, aren't setting out to kill people.

In case it isn't clear, I do not assume or have any reason to believe that Darren Wilson is a cold-blooded killer who set out to kill someone. You don't have to believe that of a police office to envision scenarios where the police kills someone without justification and without real risk to themselves, especially in a community like Ferguson.
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dead0man
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« Reply #402 on: August 26, 2014, 01:43:42 PM »

In case it isn't clear, I do not assume or have any reason to believe that Darren Wilson is a cold-blooded killer who set out to kill someone.
Then you're in the minority here.  Welcome.
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Paul Kemp
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« Reply #403 on: August 26, 2014, 02:18:50 PM »

In case it isn't clear, I do not assume or have any reason to believe that Darren Wilson is a cold-blooded killer who set out to kill someone.
Then you're in the minority here.  Welcome.

Who makes up this supposed majority?
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Reaganfan
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« Reply #404 on: August 26, 2014, 02:24:17 PM »

Look, I lived with a cop for 24 years of my life. I grew up around them. To be honest, they do not want to screw around with people. If anything, that's just more filling out reports. Almost always the cop's story is correct.

If anything, this cop was even more just justified than George Zimmerman who was found not guilty.
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MalaspinaGold
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« Reply #405 on: August 26, 2014, 02:40:47 PM »

Except all the witnesses say otherwise.
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Queen Mum Inks.LWC
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« Reply #406 on: August 26, 2014, 02:52:57 PM »

I don't really know what VOX is but this is a decent piece, nothing earth shattering, that I came across on Twitter in response to this weekend's NYT article:

Michael Brown didn't do anything as a teen that I didn't — but only one of us got killed

Vox is Ezra Klein's new internet journalism outfit.  Kinda similar to the new 538, except better.  

I saw that article as well (they're one of my main sources for news these days TBH), and yeah it's pretty obviously correct.

Matthew Yglesias robbed a store and assaulted the owner? Changes my opinion of him, if he did. He also neglected to mention this in his article.

I think the point is that doing sh**tty things while being a sh**tty teen doesn't mean that you should be shot by a police officer.

Again, that's an oversimplification of what some are claiming happened.  Do you know that Brown didn't assault the police officer?  If not, why are you acting like it's established fact that the kid was shot for stealing cigars?

I'm not but the implication of even bringing up the cigar stealing incident, which has been confirmed to have been unrelated to the incident in the street, is that this is a bad, violent criminal and therefore shooting him could be justified.

I'm not defending those who have; however, the people writing the articles that essentially say, "I was like Brown because I stole a candy bar once, but the only difference is that I wasn't shot" are only adding to the focus on that unrelated incident.

The author never assaulted a police officer, which Brown has also been alleged to have done

You appreciate this is a permanent circular logic issue with people killed by police, right? It's virtually certain that the police will note that they felt under assault, and then people will cite that to justify other things.

Honestly, Inks, do you believe Brown assaulted the police officer by diving into the car and trying to grab his gun? Do you think this is more likely, as likely, or less likely than the eyewitness accounts that he didn't?

I am not privy to the eyewitness accounts or any other evidence that could be out there, so I see no reason to speculate as to what may have happened.  I fail to see how anything about what I said is circular logic, though.


If he attacked the cop, he deserves to get shot.  If he didn't, the cop should spend a long long time in jail.

Do you believe that Brown attacked the cop? Do you put the odds at very likely it happened as the cop said, exactly 50/50 because "it's the cop's word vs. the eyewitnesses, too bad Michael Brown isn't here to disagree", or something else?

What exactly is the end result that you think should happen to the cop?  If it's criminal charges, then the odds being at 50%+1 isn't a relevant threshold to debate.
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Queen Mum Inks.LWC
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« Reply #407 on: August 26, 2014, 02:57:01 PM »

Except all the witnesses say otherwise.

That's not true.
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dead0man
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« Reply #408 on: August 26, 2014, 02:58:41 PM »

In case it isn't clear, I do not assume or have any reason to believe that Darren Wilson is a cold-blooded killer who set out to kill someone.
Then you're in the minority here.  Welcome.

Who makes up this supposed majority?
Seriously?
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King
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« Reply #409 on: August 26, 2014, 03:15:41 PM »

I would love for Darren Wilson to be a cold-blooded killer who set out to kill someone. The PD could fire him, the courts could convict him, and we could all go home.

The real problem here is that he's not.
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Paul Kemp
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« Reply #410 on: August 26, 2014, 03:16:58 PM »
« Edited: August 26, 2014, 03:19:14 PM by Paul Kemp »

In case it isn't clear, I do not assume or have any reason to believe that Darren Wilson is a cold-blooded killer who set out to kill someone.
Then you're in the minority here.  Welcome.

Who makes up this supposed majority?
Seriously?

Seriously. Perhaps some believe that but a majority? I don't think that's an accurate representation. I hate using the term but it seems a bit "strawman" to be honest.

It's rather bold to believe that he "set out to kill someone." It seems obvious at this point that there was some form of conflict between the two but the question is to what level?

Furthermore, really the entire crux of this story, to me at least, is the idea of reasonable force, whether it was with Brown himself or in response to the protests afterwards, and to what degree the relationship between minority communities and law enforcement plays into such a situation - especially in a community where the numbers are so skewed between the two groups.  

I think Gravis Marketing's post nails it pretty well, and is what I interpret the consensus to be, although I admittedly may be misreading it. You curiously left out the second part of his post, which is as important of as the first and really is where the issue is here:

You don't have to believe that of a police office to envision scenarios where the police kills someone without justification and without real risk to themselves, especially in a community like Ferguson.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #411 on: August 26, 2014, 03:35:16 PM »

I would love for Darren Wilson to be a cold-blooded killer who set out to kill someone. The PD could fire him, the courts could convict him, and we could all go home.

The real problem here is that he's not.

Exactly. Those attempting to lionise him will be disappointed- as would those seeking to do the same for Brown.
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dead0man
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« Reply #412 on: August 26, 2014, 03:46:51 PM »

In case it isn't clear, I do not assume or have any reason to believe that Darren Wilson is a cold-blooded killer who set out to kill someone.
Then you're in the minority here.  Welcome.

Who makes up this supposed majority?
Seriously?

Seriously. Perhaps some believe that but a majority? I don't think that's an accurate representation. I hate using the term but it seems a bit "strawman" to be honest.

It's rather bold to believe that he "set out to kill someone." It seems obvious at this point that there was some form of conflict between the two but the question is to what level?

Furthermore, really the entire crux of this story, to me at least, is the idea of reasonable force, whether it was with Brown himself or in response to the protests afterwards, and to what degree the relationship between minority communities and law enforcement plays into such a situation - especially in a community where the numbers are so skewed between the two groups. 

I think Gravis Marketing's post nails it pretty well, and is what I interpret the consensus to be, although I admittedly may be misreading it. You curiously left out the second part of his post, which is as important of as the first and really is where the issue is here:

You don't have to believe that of a police office to envision scenarios where the police kills someone without justification and without real risk to themselves, especially in a community like Ferguson.
Aye, point conceded.  You're probably correct.
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Reaganfan
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« Reply #413 on: August 26, 2014, 04:37:05 PM »

Except all the witnesses say otherwise.

Not true at all. Besides you have to take some account for racial investment.
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Badger
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« Reply #414 on: August 26, 2014, 07:43:22 PM »

Except all the witnesses say otherwise.

Not true at all. Besides you have to take some account for racial investment.

We all say that everytime you post. Now STFU, Naso.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #415 on: August 29, 2014, 07:40:42 AM »

Look, I lived with a cop for 24 years of my life. I grew up around them. To be honest, they do not want to screw around with people. If anything, that's just more filling out reports. Almost always the cop's story is correct.

If anything, this cop was even more just justified than George Zimmerman who was found not guilty.

You seem to suggest Zimmerman was justified.
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Reaganfan
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« Reply #416 on: August 29, 2014, 07:41:52 AM »

Look, I lived with a cop for 24 years of my life. I grew up around them. To be honest, they do not want to screw around with people. If anything, that's just more filling out reports. Almost always the cop's story is correct.

If anything, this cop was even more just justified than George Zimmerman who was found not guilty.

You seem to suggest Zimmerman was justified.

I have no opinion on it. Not enough facts. Clearly I don't believe he had intent to kill when he woke up that morning.
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Brittain33
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« Reply #417 on: August 29, 2014, 08:56:43 AM »

Naso has a good point about not feeling well-informed about the case. Here's another example where we don't have all the facts to pass judgment:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/27/victor-white-shooting_n_5721728.html?utm_source=theatlantic.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=pubexchange

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greenforest32
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« Reply #418 on: August 30, 2014, 01:18:59 AM »

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/27/opinion/thomas-edsall-the-expanding-world-of-poverty-capitalism.html
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NewYorkExpress
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« Reply #419 on: September 27, 2014, 10:24:25 AM »

http://dailydigestnews.com/2014/09/ferguson-police-told-to-stop-wearing-i-am-darren-wilson-bracelets/

Ferguson Police have been caught wearing "I am Darren Wilson" Bracelets at protests against Wilson's shooting of Michael Brown, who was unarmed at the time. Officers were also accused of wearing black tape over their name plates by the U.S Department of Justice

The Following Photo is of an officer, presumably from Ferguson, wearing one of those bracelets.


Needless to say, this is the height in poor taste, and the allegations of disguising their nameplates are truly disturbing.
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Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #420 on: September 27, 2014, 01:49:55 PM »

...
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Person Man
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« Reply #421 on: September 27, 2014, 01:57:41 PM »

I wonder what the chances are that current events are going mainstream a "watered down" popular form of White Nationalism?
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Lief 🗽
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« Reply #422 on: September 27, 2014, 02:13:50 PM »

I wonder what the chances are that current events are going mainstream a "watered down" popular form of White Nationalism?

Yeah, it's called the Republican Party.
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dead0man
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« Reply #423 on: March 09, 2015, 07:43:49 PM »

DOJ report
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What I'm guessing happened is this:
1.Mr Brown and his buddy steal some little cigars, store owner confronts them, he physically hassles/threatens the store owner
2.Mr. Brown and buddy leave store
3.several cops are called to the area
4.one of the cop cars (an SUV) sees Brown and buddy walking down the street and asks them to get out of the street
5.Brown assumes that these cops are here to bust him so tries to not get caught, he does that by trying to make sure the cops can't get out of the car
6.when he realizes that ain't going to work he tries to run
7.when he realizes THAT's not going to work he tries to go after the cops again
8.the cops shoot him as he's running towards them
9.everybody freaks out

Yes, these are not the actions of a rational man, which makes me think he was probably high on goofballs.

All just a guess, but it's much more likely than the version of what most people seem to assume what happened.  I'm not saying the cops made no mistakes, then or afterwords.  I'm saying it's ridiculous to freak out, assume the worst before the evidence is in or the investigation is complete.
Nailed it in one.  What do I win?

Yes, I understand the narrative has moved past the actual shooting (like it should have when the evidence was clearly not on Brown's side back in the middle of August, but it can be hard to stop an idiot train) on to other, bigger picture issues surrounding the case.

but gloating is fun!
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ingemann
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« Reply #424 on: March 10, 2015, 07:29:22 AM »

Nailed it in one.  What do I win?

Yes, I understand the narrative has moved past the actual shooting (like it should have when the evidence was clearly not on Brown's side back in the middle of August, but it can be hard to stop an idiot train) on to other, bigger picture issues surrounding the case.

but gloating is fun!

Enjoy it you deserve it (no sarcasm)

Of course, this report will make little difference. Brown will be kept brought up as a innocent victims of police brutality and it will become the narrative of this entire history in the future.
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