Confirmation Hearing: TyriontheImperialist for Vice President (Questioning)
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  Confirmation Hearing: TyriontheImperialist for Vice President (Questioning)
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Author Topic: Confirmation Hearing: TyriontheImperialist for Vice President (Questioning)  (Read 6143 times)
Dr. Cynic
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« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2014, 10:49:09 PM »

Wow, of all people, I would think Tyrion would have been among the most acceptable....
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TNF
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« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2014, 10:52:30 PM »

Wow, of all people, I would think Tyrion would have been among the most acceptable....

You would think so, but Lumine and Goldwater would rather play politics than see the government function as intended. (Not that Goldwater would even really notice, given his total absence from Senate debate and his role as Federalist yes man whenever a vote is called) I for one hope that Yankee will change his vote in favor of not obstructing the actual process of this chamber, rather than allow his vote to stand for gridlock and out of control partisanship.
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Lumine
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« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2014, 11:05:23 PM »

Wow, of all people, I would think Tyrion would have been among the most acceptable....

As I explained before I am not acting out of animosity towards Tyrion, my personal vote over this is related to the concerns of those whom I have spoken with and my own, because I am concerned and I am worried about what will happen. You will have to forgive me if I look unreasonable to some people (as many have already pointed out in quite an open way), but I made a choice to vote based on what I believe and I plan to stand up for it.

Besides, people like Senator TNF will chastise me regardless of what I do (and he in particular will either treat me like a wimp or like a fascist, so I am certainly uninterested in his outrage), so I would rather take a principled stand here.
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Maxwell
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« Reply #28 on: August 18, 2014, 11:07:26 PM »

One last question (It may have been answered already), would you continue to oppose the public fuel act?
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Dr. Cynic
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« Reply #29 on: August 18, 2014, 11:16:04 PM »

Wow, of all people, I would think Tyrion would have been among the most acceptable....

As I explained before I am not acting out of animosity towards Tyrion, my personal vote over this is related to the concerns of those whom I have spoken with and my own, because I am concerned and I am worried about what will happen. You will have to forgive me if I look unreasonable to some people (as many have already pointed out in quite an open way), but I made a choice to vote based on what I believe and I plan to stand up for it.

Besides, people like Senator TNF will chastise me regardless of what I do (and he in particular will either treat me like a wimp or like a fascist, so I am certainly uninterested in his outrage), so I would rather take a principled stand here.

Well, the situation between you and TNF is your own business. It has nothing to do with me nor does it have to do with Tyrion.

I still am having a hard time understanding the point you want to make. So, explain it to me again. In what way is Tyrion an unacceptable VP other than he's a member of the Labor Party. Hell, I'd vote for him to be VP before I'd vote for myself to be VP. Why are you and several others seemingly interested in prolonging the deadlock when everyone knows Tyrion would do a fine and fair job.
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President Tyrion
TyrionTheImperialist
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« Reply #30 on: August 18, 2014, 11:20:51 PM »

One last question (It may have been answered already), would you continue to oppose the public fuel act?

I'm assuming this is directed at me....

I would not pass the bill in its current form, no, and I would oppose it if the same exact version reached a 5-5 vote in the Senate under my Vice Presidency. Nonetheless, I would like to see some form of protection or public insurance from the status quo, in terms of the government's ability to provide for the utilities needs of the common man. With that said, the detractors of the bill have brought up some interesting points. I would love to further some sort of system in the direction Averroes has suggested, in terms of credits for energy efficient home retrofitting and the like. I am still somewhat wary of some arguments (I don't think long term losses would make a government project intractable, if only inconvenient), I am otherwise accepting of others.
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Lumine
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« Reply #31 on: August 18, 2014, 11:30:50 PM »

Wow, of all people, I would think Tyrion would have been among the most acceptable....

As I explained before I am not acting out of animosity towards Tyrion, my personal vote over this is related to the concerns of those whom I have spoken with and my own, because I am concerned and I am worried about what will happen. You will have to forgive me if I look unreasonable to some people (as many have already pointed out in quite an open way), but I made a choice to vote based on what I believe and I plan to stand up for it.

Besides, people like Senator TNF will chastise me regardless of what I do (and he in particular will either treat me like a wimp or like a fascist, so I am certainly uninterested in his outrage), so I would rather take a principled stand here.

Well, the situation between you and TNF is your own business. It has nothing to do with me nor does it have to do with Tyrion.

I still am having a hard time understanding the point you want to make. So, explain it to me again. In what way is Tyrion an unacceptable VP other than he's a member of the Labor Party. Hell, I'd vote for him to be VP before I'd vote for myself to be VP. Why are you and several others seemingly interested in prolonging the deadlock when everyone knows Tyrion would do a fine and fair job.

My point is basically that I have no confidence on the administration , and that's a view that is shared among a good number of people (many of whom have actually encouraged me to stand firm on this issue). You will forgive my bluntness, but I don't trust the White House to remain on the road that was promised during the campaign when the shift to the left and to many unworkable policies is already far too evident. There are many who have already spoken against this from many political sectors, and considering the emphasis Griffin openly made on party loyalty and the implied threats that Labor will vote as a block and will punish disloyalty you will understand the existing concerns about what will happen after the administration is granted control over the Senate.
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Talleyrand
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« Reply #32 on: August 18, 2014, 11:43:05 PM »

Sorry to change the topic here, but since when have you cared at all about promises made during a campaign?

As I recall, you ran as a moderate and promised to serve in the TPP (whose votes were the overwhelming reason you were re-elected in April) if elected, then barely a few weeks after being sworn in, you switched parties without notice, and revealed you had openly been discussing a party switch since before the election.

I also wish that the people who have made their concerns "in private" to you would stand up in public and give a legitimate reason as to why they oppose this nomination, instead of hiding behind your posts.

It's really a shame, because I had actually expected better from you. You had usually been a voice of compromise in the Senate, and you were doing an extremely good job with The Political Tracker when it was still running. This sort of petty behavior, especially when directed against a distinguished three term Senator who has never shown this sort of unrequited partisanship and is unimpeachable for the position of Vice President. 
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Cassius
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« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2014, 04:45:33 AM »

Nay
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bore
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« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2014, 05:20:33 AM »

As I said before the vote (which no one responded to) unless the nominee is grossly incompetent, and even then, the senate simply does not have the right to intervene.

This is not a matter of whether you think there should be a labor VP. That has already been decided for you, by the electorate. What Lumine and all the other nay voters are doing is a blatant violation of democracy, exactly the same as a representative who changes party straight after the election, a politician who campaigns for something then votes against it, a govIernor who appoints someone of a completely different viewpoint to fill a vacancy.

I honestly could not care less about the weird feud that Lumine seems to have with TNF. In fact, as TNF knows only too well, often I agree with Lumine over him. This has nothing to do with that.

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DemPGH
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« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2014, 10:01:30 AM »

What assurance can I give that the energy plan is dead and interred? If someone else gives that assurance, will it be better?

Tyrion will be re-nominated, and if the right chooses this course, they certainly remove any remaining trust I may have and any incentive I may have to work with them. That's just a fact.
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Oakvale
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« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2014, 10:16:47 AM »

What has changed since these posts were made? All indications are that the full-scale nationalisation of energy will go ahead, maybe with a few token concessions. The major problems with the plan will, presumably, remain untouched. I've also been, er, assured by a Labor Senator that energy nationalisation "will pass" in short order.

Assuming that the clogging rule is not in the way, I'll try to move it along with an exec slot or one of the slots that I have. I never thought it would get this far, actually, and when I jumped in to defend it it was toward the end. So I'll be more involved this time and do some research to support a new one.

the next discussion and vote on this bill

So this fails then, it looks like. No matter, I'll simply reintroduce it into the queue and we can resume debate, since it looks like at least the majority actually wants to pass this bill, they just don't feel entirely comfortable with the version as is proposed.

While I understand your frustration at the rejection of Tyrion, frankly, I haven't seen much desire from your party - and I don't mean this as a criticism of you personally - to work with the right at all. Senators like Dr. Cynic openly admitted that they were flat-out ignoring the entirely reasonable posts from people like Deus.
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Dr. Cynic
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« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2014, 01:23:46 PM »

I didn't say I was ignoring. I disagreed with it. I want to move on to a new bill. One that is being worked on.
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Oakvale
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« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2014, 01:28:55 PM »

I didn't say I was ignoring. I disagreed with it. I want to move on to a new bill. One that is being worked on.

Would it piss you off if I told you that I didn't read anything you wrote?

The biggest problem with the debate surround that bill was that concerns were treated as if they were transparent absurdities and were dismissed out of hand.
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Dr. Cynic
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« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2014, 04:02:31 PM »

I didn't say I was ignoring. I disagreed with it. I want to move on to a new bill. One that is being worked on.

Would it piss you off if I told you that I didn't read anything you wrote?

The biggest problem with the debate surround that bill was that concerns were treated as if they were transparent absurdities and were dismissed out of hand.

But that doesn't mean I ignored him. I read what he said, but I didn't agree. When I said that, I was using sarcasm, which I see flew over your head. It happens, it's text.

What more is there to say on that other than I share a vastly different belief system? My desire is to see all low income families with free electricity and I believed that was a step in the right direction. If I was wrong, then so be it.
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Cranberry
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« Reply #40 on: August 19, 2014, 04:11:23 PM »

Just shortly popping in from my holiday.

Aye, of course

And bye again Tongue
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TNF
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« Reply #41 on: August 19, 2014, 05:05:27 PM »

This is tied at present.
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windjammer
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« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2014, 04:37:51 PM »

Senators, just to remind all of you that:


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bore
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« Reply #43 on: August 21, 2014, 09:36:36 AM »

I'll motion for an extension, then.
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TNF
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« Reply #44 on: August 21, 2014, 10:28:03 AM »

I second the motion.
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TNF
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« Reply #45 on: August 23, 2014, 09:53:59 AM »

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Without a Vice President, the Constitution specifies me as acting President of the Senate. The Vice President normally has no vote with the noted exception of a tie. As such, with the vote on confirming Tyrion tied at present, I shall now cast a second ballot in my capacity as acting President of the Senate to break this impasse once and for all.

AYE

TyriontheImperialist is thus confirmed as Vice President of the Republic of Atlasia.

Aye(s): Senator TNF, Senator bore, Senator Alfred F. Jones, Senator TheCranberry, Senator Cynic, PPT TNF
Nay(s): Senator North Carolina Yankee, Senator Goldwater, Senator Cassius, Senator Spiral, Senator Lumine
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #46 on: August 23, 2014, 11:01:47 AM »

This is another example of how unclear the rules are regarding things like this. I can see where TNF gets the impression this is okay, but the subsequent text makes it clear that a VP must be confirmed by a majority of Senators. It doesn't say any tie breaking vote need be applied.

It also makes little sense from a practical point of view to allow someone to vote twice. If the PPT were allowed to break ties if the VP was absent, then a situation arises where a senator has 2 votes while the rest have 1. This is unfair. The speaker of the house doesn't have two votes. Likewise for the majority leader of the senate.  

It's perfectly fine to ignore me, I still don't know if I passed the bar yet and I could be completely wrong. What I do know is these rules are far too vague and have caused a lot of headaches over the past few weeks.

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DemPGH
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« Reply #47 on: August 23, 2014, 12:04:26 PM »



It also makes little sense from a practical point of view to allow someone to vote twice. If the PPT were allowed to break ties if the VP was absent, then a situation arises where a senator has 2 votes while the rest have 1. This is unfair. The speaker of the house doesn't have two votes. Likewise for the majority leader of the senate.  

It's perfectly fine to ignore me, I still don't know if I passed the bar yet and I could be completely wrong. What I do know is these rules are far too vague and have caused a lot of headaches over the past few weeks.


That's all your personal opinion. Which is fine. But as to the process of the game, a majority of the Senate has voted to confirm him because the PPT can act as President of the Senate to break ties should the V.P. be gone and so situations like this can reach resolution. Otherwise, you let one bloc of people shut down part of the government. But who knows, maybe they want that.
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Lumine
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« Reply #48 on: August 23, 2014, 12:49:36 PM »

In all fairness, this action is also a matter of personal opinion because we don't whether this is constitutional or not. I'm tempted to believe it is not constitutional because of the reasons Nix and Duke pointed out and because it also sets a precedent that might be complicated in the future, but on the other hand we already had enough gridlock thanks to the suit against Windjammer regarding the PPT.  The witch hunt aside, I believe us Senators who voted Nay made their concerns quite clear and forced a national debate on it, something I believe to be positive. I'm not sure what the rest will do, but I don't have any plans of going to the Supreme Court.

Either way, once we start discussing the Nix rules we need to clear this issue as best as we can, and we need to regulate the powers of the VP and the PPT once and for all.
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bore
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« Reply #49 on: August 23, 2014, 01:03:49 PM »
« Edited: August 23, 2014, 01:07:34 PM by Senator bore »

I've long been of the opinion that our constitution is so flabby and poorly worded that it can be used to justify anything, so none of this discussion surprises me.

I would like to see a court ruling on this, though, although the downside is that it would take several weeks.
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