What's worse, government or corporate bureaucracy?

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http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/24999-which-is-worse-government-or-corporate-bureaucracy

[Deus Naturae]

Government bureaucracy without a doubt. At least with corporations, there's competition, and consumers can preference less bureaucratic firms above more bureaucratic ones.

LOL at the idea that government bureaucrats are accountable to "We the People." I don't seem to remember the last FDA elections. Maybe around the same time as the last EPA elections? Come to think it, I don't remember that one either...

[Antonio the Sixth]

Government bureaucracy without a doubt. At least with corporations, there's competition, and consumers can preference less bureaucratic firms above more bureaucratic ones.

LOL at the idea that government bureaucrats are accountable to "We the People." I don't seem to remember the last FDA elections. Maybe around the same time as the last EPA elections? Come to think it, I don't remember that one either...

lollibertarians

[DC Al Fine]

Government is worse because I can't really go "F[inks] you I'm taking my business elsewhere" like I've done with corporations.

[Deus Naturae]

Government bureaucracy without a doubt. At least with corporations, there's competition, and consumers can preference less bureaucratic firms above more bureaucratic ones.

LOL at the idea that government bureaucrats are accountable to "We the People." I don't seem to remember the last FDA elections. Maybe around the same time as the last EPA elections? Come to think it, I don't remember that one either...

lollibertarians

What, do you genuinely believe that "we the people" have any say over the actions of government bureaucrats? When an FDA bureaucrat decides to reject a life-saving drug, does he suffer any risk of being fired? What about a Department of Agriculture bureaucratic commission decides that only a certain amount of a given crop can be grown in a given year? There are countless unaccountable bureaucratic bodies that have authority to impose regulations on countless aspects of our society, and there really is nothing we can do short of abolishing their massive departments/agencies/commissions/etc altogether. For all leftists whine about "restoring our democracy" they don't seem to be very concerned about the unaccountable hordes of unelected bureaucrats with the power dictate millions of rules rules with practically no oversight from democratically elected officeholders.

[Goldwater]

Government is worse because I can't really go "F[inks] you I'm taking my business elsewhere" like I've done with corporations.

This.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The correct answer is corporate style bureaucracy within a framework that is technically public sector (or at least is not a business in a conventional sense).

[Grumpier Than Thou]

Government bureaucracy without a doubt. At least with corporations, there's competition, and consumers can preference less bureaucratic firms above more bureaucratic ones.

LOL at the idea that government bureaucrats are accountable to "We the People." I don't seem to remember the last FDA elections. Maybe around the same time as the last EPA elections? Come to think it, I don't remember that one either...

lollibertarians

Oh boy.

[DemPGH]

Corporate, clearly. And it's simply because it's gotten entirely too greedy over the end of the 20th century, and it's to the point where it threatens our democratic processes.

[Sbane]

Government is worse because I can't really go "F[inks] you I'm taking my business elsewhere" like I've done with corporations.

The problem is that in monopolistic industries one doesn't really have a choice. If I could, I would give the middle finger to Comcast and move to another ISP but I literally have no other choice. And I live right in the middle of Nashville. I can at least vote out the bums in the government who are ultimately responsible for managing agencies such as the FDA, VA etc.

[Deus Naturae]

Government is worse because I can't really go "F[inks] you I'm taking my business elsewhere" like I've done with corporations.

I can at least vote out the bums in the government who are ultimately responsible for managing agencies such as the FDA, VA etc.

I don't see how. Elected officeholders don't manage government agencies. They're managed by appointed bureaucrats (hence the term "bureaucracy") who really have no accountability to the public. If an FDA bureaucrat rejects a drug and kills a few people, only those effected are likely to find out about it, and those who are effected have no real way of even finding out the guy who made the decision to reject the drug that could've saved their loved one, much less voting him out of office.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Government is worse because I can't really go "F[inks] you I'm taking my business elsewhere" like I've done with corporations.

That only makes sense in some cases. You can't exactly change your water provider, no matter how many times they screw you over; likewise with local transport monopolies etc.

Government is worse because I can't really go "F[inks] you I'm taking my business elsewhere" like I've done with corporations.

I can at least vote out the bums in the government who are ultimately responsible for managing agencies such as the FDA, VA etc.

I don't see how. Elected officeholders don't manage government agencies. They're managed by appointed bureaucrats (hence the term "bureaucracy") who really have no accountability to the public. If an FDA bureaucrat rejects a drug and kills a few people, only those effected are likely to find out about it, and those who are effected have no real way of even finding out the guy who made the decision to reject the drug that could've saved their loved one, much less voting him out of office.

Surely, in theory at least, that FDA bureaucrat will be dragged out in front of Senate tribunals, especially if families make a fuss? Not saying that's a foolproof system, but slightly more accountable than a non-state actor like a pharmaceutical company.

[Deus Naturae]

Surely, in theory at least, that FDA bureaucrat will be dragged out in front of Senate tribunals, especially if families make a fuss? Not saying that's a foolproof system, but slightly more accountable than a non-state actor like a pharmaceutical company.

I don't see why that would be the case at all.

[TDAS04]

Corporate, at least when we're stuck with monopolies. 

[Antonio the Sixth]

Besides, I'm annoyed by the unstated assumption that "bureaucracy" in itself is some sort of boogeyman. Bureaucracy certainly can degenerate into a very flawed and harmful system, but it has also been a critical agent of development and progress throughout recent history. Modern society can't do without a strong bureaucracy.

[Sbane]

Government is worse because I can't really go "F[inks] you I'm taking my business elsewhere" like I've done with corporations.

I can at least vote out the bums in the government who are ultimately responsible for managing agencies such as the FDA, VA etc.

I don't see how. Elected officeholders don't manage government agencies. They're managed by appointed bureaucrats (hence the term "bureaucracy") who really have no accountability to the public. If an FDA bureaucrat rejects a drug and kills a few people, only those effected are likely to find out about it, and those who are effected have no real way of even finding out the guy who made the decision to reject the drug that could've saved their loved one, much less voting him out of office.

If the market didn't have any monopolies I would agree with you that government bureaucracy is worse but unfortunately there are monopolies in America due to our corporate controlled political system.

[Rockefeller GOP]

Government, by a mile.

[ElectionsGuy]

Government bureaucracy, clearly. For one many have noted you can opt out of a business bureaucracy. Also, when business screws up and something doesn't happen right, less people will buy your products and profit will go down. Government rarely ever gets held accountable to corruption or wrongdoing. 

[Deus Naturae]

Government is worse because I can't really go "F[inks] you I'm taking my business elsewhere" like I've done with corporations.

I can at least vote out the bums in the government who are ultimately responsible for managing agencies such as the FDA, VA etc.

I don't see how. Elected officeholders don't manage government agencies. They're managed by appointed bureaucrats (hence the term "bureaucracy") who really have no accountability to the public. If an FDA bureaucrat rejects a drug and kills a few people, only those effected are likely to find out about it, and those who are effected have no real way of even finding out the guy who made the decision to reject the drug that could've saved their loved one, much less voting him out of office.

If the market didn't have any monopolies I would agree with you that government bureaucracy is worse but unfortunately there are monopolies in America due to our corporate controlled political system.

True, but every government bureaucracy is a monopoly, whereas only some corporate bureaucracies are.

[Sbane]

Government is worse because I can't really go "F[inks] you I'm taking my business elsewhere" like I've done with corporations.

I can at least vote out the bums in the government who are ultimately responsible for managing agencies such as the FDA, VA etc.

I don't see how. Elected officeholders don't manage government agencies. They're managed by appointed bureaucrats (hence the term "bureaucracy") who really have no accountability to the public. If an FDA bureaucrat rejects a drug and kills a few people, only those effected are likely to find out about it, and those who are effected have no real way of even finding out the guy who made the decision to reject the drug that could've saved their loved one, much less voting him out of office.

If the market didn't have any monopolies I would agree with you that government bureaucracy is worse but unfortunately there are monopolies in America due to our corporate controlled political system.

True, but every government bureaucracy is a monopoly, whereas only some corporate bureaucracies are.

See, I disagree that you cannot do anything about government bureaucracies. I disagree with you that the FDA does anything wrong regarding approving drugs, but let's take the VA for example. It has become a political issue and it will be solved, or it will continue to be an issue and politicians will lose their job. When will comcast start giving a sh**t about their customers?

[MalaspinaGold]

Government bureaucracy without a doubt. At least with corporations, there's competition, and consumers can preference less bureaucratic firms above more bureaucratic ones.

LOL at the idea that government bureaucrats are accountable to "We the People." I don't seem to remember the last FDA elections. Maybe around the same time as the last EPA elections? Come to think it, I don't remember that one either...

lollibertarians

What, do you genuinely believe that "we the people" have any say over the actions of government bureaucrats? When an FDA bureaucrat decides to reject a life-saving drug, does he suffer any risk of being fired? What about a Department of Agriculture bureaucratic commission decides that only a certain amount of a given crop can be grown in a given year? There are countless unaccountable bureaucratic bodies that have authority to impose regulations on countless aspects of our society, and there really is nothing we can do short of abolishing their massive departments/agencies/commissions/etc altogether. For all leftists whine about "restoring our democracy" they don't seem to be very concerned about the unaccountable hordes of unelected bureaucrats with the power dictate millions of rules rules with practically no oversight from democratically elected officeholders.

> implying the FDA regularly rejects life-saving drugs for no reason whatsoever.

[Oakvale]

While obviously bureaucracy is among the worst features of this hellish modern age I'm going to have to say that government bureaucracy narrowly edges out corporate bureaucracy in terms of making me want to end it all since, as was pointed out above, you can't threaten to take your custom elsewhere when dealing with the government. Although Al is correct that the heinous combination of private sector hierarchy and bureaucracy inside the utterly unaccountable framework of a state/semi-state body is the sweet spot for Kafkaesque hell.

The example that always springs to mind for me is the Post Office. Layers upon layers of a soul-destroying bureaucratic labyrinth with all the worst elements of a private business and a government body somehow combined so as to get the absolute worst possible of both worlds. And, of course, ()they all have cushy "protections" and a corrupt, over-powered union so no postal worker will ever face any consequences for incompetence or perverse semi-malevolence. The few times I've had to deal with the post office I've considered just throwing myself from a high window instead. Hopefully Merkel orders us to privatise it and every employee of the postal service loses their jobs soon.