Lumine playing politics wih Tyrion's nomination for VP

[TNF]

We've officially reached a new low for Senator Lumine, who now seems to only exist to clog up the works in the Senate and attempt to deny the President the right to select his own Vice President. The disgusting and pathetic partisanship on display here by Senators Lumine and his yes man, the (largely inactive) Goldwater makes a mockery of our democratic conventions and all precedent up to this point. None of us in Labor called for the nomination of Cincinnatus to replace Matt from VT to be transformed into a circus to score political points, and we don't think that Tyrion, an impeccable Senator with a proven record of activity and working across party lines, should be subject to such.

If you stand with Tyrion, show your support here. Condemn Lumine and his gang of obstructionists and all those who would play politics with the normal operation of our government in Nyman.

[Dereich]

Lumine is taking decisions the Senate used to consider non-partisan and adding partisanship? How terrible. Certainly something you'd never do.

[Dr. Cynic]

I honestly think it's rather silly considering Tyrion not just that the President should have the VP he wants, but also the fact that Tyrion is probably one of the best Senators Atlasia has had recently. I admit I'm perplexed by Lumine's actions.

[TNF]

I honestly think it's rather silly considering Tyrion not just that the President should have the VP he wants, but also the fact that Tyrion is probably one of the best Senators Atlasia has had recently. I admit I'm perplexed by Lumine's actions.

It's utterly perplexing as well, given that Lumine prides himself on being a 'bipartisan' legislator and on working with members of both parties. A pathetic display of partisanship for the sole purpose of obstruction.

[DemPGH]

I must say that after recent events I am a bit wary of voting to secure the administration's hold on the Senate, even if many would consider such an action born out of mere partisanship and nothing more.

Indeed. This is the entire basis for a negative vote on Tyrion, who received not a semblance of a fair hearing. It's a denial based upon political affiliation, which is unfortunate.

Of course Tyrion is not nearly as partisan a choice as I could have made and even voted against the Fuel and Power bill. But if the right wishes to stoop to this level of partisanship and pettiness, so be it.

[Adam Griffin]

Lumine is taking decisions the Senate used to consider non-partisan and adding partisanship? How terrible. Certainly something you'd never do.

The key difference being that one of them wouldn't try to be partisan while claiming to be doing the exact opposite. Partisanship isn't inherently wrong, but the corrupted cousin that distorts its intent in order to avoid bearing the brunt of its consequences certainly is. Someone has learned well from his mentor.

[President Tyrion]

I think what's absolutely crazy about it is that I've been one of Lumine's biggest allies in terms of foreign policy, which has pretty much been his major topic of focus in the Senate.

I'm not really one to weigh in on these issues of partisanship and whatnot, but this is supremely frustrating to me.

[Napoleon]

"Color me shocked!" said absolutely no one who has visited this section of the forum in the last six months.

[GAworth]

It saddens me to see this. New Senators like myself could help stop this.

[SWE]

Disgusting

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

In spite of some humorously melodramatic circle-jerking going on in this thread, I have to say I don't understand the objection against confirming Tyrion either.  He's been an active and competent Senator, and I think he's a fine pick for the job.  Sure it would be nice  to have someone of a right-leaning persuasion as VP, but given whom Atlasia elected President that isn't something anyone can fairly expect.  Having one of the more moderate Laborites fill the position is not a bad deal.

[free my dawg]

I share the disgust of my fellow colleague, SWE. Tyrion has not only proven himself a force in the Senate, and one of the most competent men for the job, but even Lumine cooperated with him on matters on foreign policy. Atlasia elected DemPGH to serve as the president, and he has the mandate of the people to choose his own vice president. Filibustering it on account of his affiliation is a subversion of democracy, plain and simple.

[Simfan34]

Many on the right voted for an administration that they imagined would be considerably less left-wing than the one we have. I don't know why you are all so shocked and appalled that they now seem to be lashing out at it. For all the hubabaloo about the fact DemPGH was elected let us also member the Senate is also elected by the people, last I checked. Being elected, as you all mention, doesn't give one some sort of carte blanche. Which this administration has increasingly acted like it has a right to.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Lumine is not the hero Atlasia deserves, but he's the hero it needs.

[Adam Griffin]

Many on the right voted for an administration that they imagined would be considerably less left-wing than the one we have. I don't know why you are all so shocked and appalled that they now seem to be lashing out at it.

This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. Are you implying that individuals can retroactively alter their votes? TPP also voted for Lumine; do we get to recall him because he changed parties mid-term and didn't do or serve exactly as implied? If not, then guess what: there's always the next election!

For all the hubabaloo about the fact DemPGH was elected let us also member the Senate is also elected by the people, last I checked. Being elected, as you all mention, doesn't give one some sort of carte blanche. Which this administration has increasingly acted like it has a right to.

Again, I must ask a seemingly ridiculous question: are we in a parliamentary democracy? If not, then the two have nothing to do with one another in terms of a singular mandate. I still don't understand your point, as the majority of regions elected Labor representation to the Senate, the two at-large Labor candidates who won Senate seats in the past election ranked #1 and #2 in number of preferences, and a majority of voters elected a Labor President and Labor Vice-President understanding full good and well that there were 5 Labor Senators at the time and likely to be 5 after the fact.

Also, please cite what exactly DemPGH has overreached on (and before you say anything about the power debate, please make the distinction between a bill and a law).

It's so cute when you go all populist and pretend to love Athenian democracy or some equivalent.


Also, for the masses who condone this treacherous behavior: I realize that you all aren't used to winning all that often and therefore aren't too familiar with the concept of overreaching - in fact, most of the time you go out of your way to avoid articulating anything for fear of doing so - but the perceived "gotcha!" moment you think you have against us for supporting nationalization of energy is going to fade and flip real fast if you go through with this. When I said you guys wouldn't do it, perhaps I should have more carefully phrased it as, "I didn't think you guys would be stupid enough to do it". Remember: even I became GM.

[Senator Cris]

Lumine has only expressed doubts in name of some citizens that he represent in the Senate as At-Large Senator. I do not see the reason for all this controversy.
A second thing. I have the impression that this is only an attack against Lumine and the Federalist Party in view of the At-Large elections, only for personal matters and for an ideological questions. Why you haven't mentioned Senator Spiral that has voted against the Tryon confirmation as Lumine and Goldwater?
A third thing. Are you sure that you, TNF, can speak against partisanship? Are you sure?

[bore]

If TNF can't speak against partisanship, I think I can:

As I said before the vote (which no one responded to) unless the nominee is grossly incompetent, and even then, the senate simply does not have the right to intervene.

This is not a matter of whether you think there should be a labor VP. That has already been decided for you, by the electorate. What Lumine and all the other nay voters are doing is a blatant violation of democracy, exactly the same as a representative who changes party straight after the election, a politician who campaigns for something then votes against it, a governor who appoints someone of a completely different viewpoint to fill a vacancy.

I honestly could not care less about the weird feud that Lumine seems to have with TNF. In fact, as TNF knows only too well, often I agree with Lumine over him. This has nothing to do with that.

[Adam Griffin]

I have the impression that this is only an attack against Lumine and the Federalist Party in view of the At-Large elections, only for personal matters and for an ideological questions.

Not really. If anything, the blatant partisan attack-fest for electoral gain began with the character assassination of windjammer by a certain Senator (which mind you, managed to break him but not public support for him), followed by last-minute outrage led by a certain party's loose cannon over a bill that hardly anyone on the right bothered to read until it was up for a final vote, later sprinkled with some fake number-crunching and now an overtly-political attempt to deny the majority will of the people in the last election from being preserved - and of course, all of the nasty PM and off-site smearing that is totally going on right now but no one's talking about publicly.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

I have the impression that this is only an attack against Lumine and the Federalist Party in view of the At-Large elections, only for personal matters and for an ideological questions.

Not really. If anything, the blatant partisan attack-fest for electoral gain began with the character assassination of windjammer by a certain Senator (which mind you, managed to break him but not public support for him), followed by last-minute outrage led by a certain party's loose cannon over a bill that hardly anyone on the right bothered to read until it was up for a final vote, later sprinkled with some fake number-crunching and now an overtly-political attempt to deny the majority will of the people in the last election from being preserved - and of course, all of the nasty PM and off-site smearing that is totally going on right now but no one's talking about publicly.

Do you actually believe the sh**t you type, Griffin? You know full-well what happened with windjammer, and to invoke that now frankly proves that you're just talking out your ass to score points. The things said in this thread about Lumine are much worse than anything anyone even hinted at about windjammer, so lay off.

Now for the matter at hand. I'm refraining from commenting on the vote, but it's kind of laughable to accuse members of the right for failing to read the bill when the very person we're talking about nominating for VP admitted that he didn't read it closely enough and changed his vote on the issue multiple times.

I mean, if you're gonna go for low-hanging political fruit, do it right, man . People know your shtick.

[Adam Griffin]

I have the impression that this is only an attack against Lumine and the Federalist Party in view of the At-Large elections, only for personal matters and for an ideological questions.

Not really. If anything, the blatant partisan attack-fest for electoral gain began with the character assassination of windjammer by a certain Senator (which mind you, managed to break him but not public support for him), followed by last-minute outrage led by a certain party's loose cannon over a bill that hardly anyone on the right bothered to read until it was up for a final vote, later sprinkled with some fake number-crunching and now an overtly-political attempt to deny the majority will of the people in the last election from being preserved - and of course, all of the nasty PM and off-site smearing that is totally going on right now but no one's talking about publicly.

Do you actually believe the sh**t you type, Griffin? You know full-well what happened with windjammer, and to invoke that now frankly proves that you're just talking out your ass to score points. The things said in this thread about Lumine are much worse than anything anyone even hinted at about windjammer, so lay off.

Now for the matter at hand. I'm refraining from commenting on the vote, but it's kind of laughable to accuse members of the right for failing to read the bill when the very person we're talking about nominating for VP admitted that he didn't read it closely enough and changed his vote on the issue multiple times.

I mean, if you're gonna go for low-hanging political fruit, do it right, man . People know your shtick.

I know that reforms were championed by the VP and initially supported, followed by a blatant questioning of the intent of the VP and subsequent unraveling from there. The catalyst is what I'm concerned with and addressing, and not how it ended, for it wouldn't have ended the way it did had the BS spin not come from a side other than mine.

The Right by and large has been silent and apathetic until two weeks before the at-large election, at which point there now seems to be a never-ending stream of so-called controversies and trials of public opinion that are oh-so-important to have suddenly. You're right: I know what low-hanging political fruit looks like - especially the electorally-expedient kind - and it's been your side that has suddenly started jumping up and down incessantly, trying to grab a pair.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

Weak. C+.

[Adam Griffin]

Weak. C+.

Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on where else I'm wrong...maybe to do with how the same people are framing this administration? Maybe you'd like to describe how this administration has somehow been oh-so-radical when compared to what was promised, as that seems to be the current talking point? What specific pieces of legislation have been signed into law that fit that criteria?

Apparently, bills debated by the Senate that haven't even passed constitute an extremist overreach by the current administration, and especially the President himself. Or would you disagree with the premise of your peers, as a member of the administration? I certainly hope you'll have an answer, because otherwise, I'd assume that this isn't the debate for you.

[Cincinnatus]

Thanks for the mention.  Of course this is all pretty funny, and typical to me.  Good luck.

[Oakvale]

Weak. C+.

Perhaps you'd like to elaborate on where else I'm wrong...maybe to do with how the same people are framing this administration? Maybe you'd like to describe how this administration has somehow been oh-so-radical when compared to what was promised, as that seems to be the current talking point? What specific pieces of legislation have been signed into law that fit that criteria?

Apparently, bills debated by the Senate that haven't even passed constitute an extremist overreach by the current administration, and especially the President himself. Or would you disagree with the premise of your peers, as a member of the administration? I certainly hope you'll have an answer, because otherwise, I'd assume that this isn't the debate for you.

Even by Labor standards this is a particularly far-fetched bit of propaganda. A bill that nationalises 10% of the economy (for no reason!), was unanimously supported by the governing party, championed by the President, only failed at the last minute because two Senators became afraid of looking like TNF, and is to be reintroduced until it passes doesn't constitute overreach?

Overreach can be rejected. It generally is. In the case of both Windjammer's executive branch power grab - which was, to his credit, also rejected by the President - and this deranged attempt to seize the energy sector, overreach has been rejected, despite the caterwauling of Labor, who think they can "bend the public to [their] will" by screaming loud enough. The best right-winger is worse than the worst Labor Senator! Lumine is a social traitor! Workers! Workers! Workers! If you keep repeating dogma enough people might even internalise it.

I won't attempt to defend the fact that there was hardly a peep from the Right about the power bill. It's true, and shameful. All the criticism was from the libertarian right (Deus) the centre (me, Polnut, Simfan, Duke) and even within Labor (Nix). The Right slept. Perhaps they're trying to make up for that failure in duty by blocking the Vice-Presidential nominee.

And it's clear why, and I'm afraid I don't think it's some inexcusable atrocity that this nominee has been blocked. It has become clear - from, you know, the countless public statements to that effect, that Labor will continue to overreach and push an extremist agenda through the Senate, most specifically the economically suicidal and deeply unpopular energy nationalisation program, and some Senators don't wish to give Labor an effective majority. That's a reasonable position to take considering the entire party seems on the brink of Nixonian paranoia (we are beset by enemies on all sides, comrades!" and an overwhelming desire to get this "win" at all costs.

It's true that Tyrion's backed down on his support for the bill, but you can see why many Senators are troubled by his previous support and the mere fact that he's a Labor vote, who will, like all Labor Senators are at some point, be pushed into supporting an extreme far-left agenda. All that said, if I were a Senator I'd probably vote to confirm him as Vice-President, but that doesn't mean that there aren't legitimate reasons for others to oppose the nomination. To claim that this rejection - let alone the fall of Windjammer, who lost the support of virtually everyone in the administration - are nothing but expressions of partisanship demeans your credibility.

Labor has been very clear that they do not care about either the will of the (overwhelming majority!) of the public, the opinion of the Senate, or the merit of this power bill. Why they are shocked and appalled that Senators would reject handing them back a working majority is beyond me.

EDIT: I will however concede completely that I remain hurt and annoyed at Lumine's decision to  quit our party soon after we'd elected him. I'll still vote for him since he's objectively one of the best Senators in the game, but it was a troubling and disappointing move.

[Adam Griffin]

Even by Labor standards this is a particularly far-fetched bit of propaganda. A bill that nationalises 10% of the economy (for no reason!), was unanimously supported by the governing party, championed by the President, only failed at the last minute because two Senators became afraid of looking like TNF, and is to be reintroduced until it passes doesn't constitute overreach?

The bill didn't get the attention it deserved because nobody weighed in on it, and the hand-wringing only began once everybody who lacked involvement decided to care. The nationalization of energy has been in our platform for an entire year - maybe longer? Again, it's up to people if they want to read - this wasn't some surprising development. The broader issue itself isn't something that is vociferously opposed as some here would like to think - the specific legislation is bad legislation, which is why it will be completely restructured to reflect that, and most anyone left of center will ultimately wind up supporting it because that's where the actual ideological balance of the game is.

Overreach can be rejected. It generally is.

So nothing to worry about, eh?

And it's clear why, and I'm afraid I don't think it's some inexcusable atrocity that this nominee has been blocked. It has become clear - from, you know, the countless public statements to that effect, that Labor will continue to overreach and push an extremist agenda through the Senate, most specifically the economically suicidal and deeply unpopular energy nationalisation program, and some Senators don't wish to give Labor an effective majority. That's a reasonable position to take considering the entire party seems on the brink of Nixonian paranoia (we are beset by enemies on all sides, comrades!" and an overwhelming desire to get this "win" at all costs.

No, it's not clear why. Again, I'm waiting for someone to outline all of the crazy stuff that's suddenly been enacted into law and that hasn't been self-filtered by our own caucus, even before all of this wing-flapping started. If we're to talk about paranoia, then let's look at all of these diatribes in which it's implied that there's some sort of vast conspiracy to corral all of our votes into some unified construct that will always shove through the most extreme agenda. Has that happened? No. Have we had effective ability to do that with 5 Senators and a VP for the past two months? Yes. Who's been leading this extremist agenda, pray tell? Is it me, who's been essentially MIA from the game since July? Am I basically telling 1 or 2 Labor Senators to break ranks with the majority each time on bills, just to make sure nobody catches on? Some conspiracy there. If anything, the party is out of step because of a lack of management, and not because of some organized effort. And the "Win at all costs" Labor machine has been helpful to many a folk over time, including yourself.  

It's true that Tyrion's backed down on his support for the bill, but you can see why many Senators are troubled by his previous support and the mere fact that he's a Labor vote, who will, like all Labor Senators are at some point, be pushed into supporting an extreme far-left agenda. All that said, if I were a Senator I'd probably vote to confirm him as Vice-President, but that doesn't mean that there aren't legitimate reasons for others to oppose the nomination. To claim that this rejection - let alone the fall of Windjammer, who lost the support of virtually everyone in the administration - are nothing but expressions of partisanship demeans your credibility.

Of course I will say read my response immediately above this for the refutation of this bogus line of thought. Again, show me this grand conspiracy where any really controversial bill has actually made it through in the past two months - 5 Labor Senators voting AYE plus a Labor Vice-President. It just isn't there, and this is all straw-grasping over one piece of legislation and apparently, my failure to frequent certain outlying precincts enough as of late.

To the far-leftism: you say it like it's a bad thing, or if it's not what we've always been at our core. This is why I find these positions to be rather superficial at such a time. I guess you mean it in some sort of earth-shattering, end-of-the-world type of far-leftism that hasn't ever existed before, but again, there's very little that has been brought up that hasn't been standard platform or policy for a long, long time. The fact that the party can't even agree on major components of what we supposedly stand for ought to tell you how likely it is that there's going to be some sort of MASTER PLAN to overthrow everything that is holy in this game to whomever feels that way.

I still find it absolutely hilarious, though, that you're worried about in-game policy (that admittedly you and I both know has absolutely no tangible effect on the game), yet were just as big of a component as many Laborites were (and in the latter stages, more so) in Rimjob. C'mon now, you're really like the last person who should be trying to act holier than moi, partner-in-crime!

Labor has been very clear that they do not care about either the will of the (overwhelming majority!) of the public, the opinion of the Senate, or the merit of this power bill. Why they are shocked and appalled that Senators would reject handing them back a working majority is beyond me.

On what issue? Again, taking one instance of a bill and trying to twist it into a pretzel of "nationalization has been rejected" is ludicrous. Most anyone in this game who spoke out against this rendition of the bill and who is left-of-center supports nationalization in some capacity, and I am confident will come to the table on our revised version (which has already been in the works).

And while we're on the subject and as far as "wills" and majorities go, there has only been one party in this game post-dissolution that has managed to win many a majority (or when not, an effective enough of a plurality) in the regions, in the Senate and at the presidential level for more than a few months at a time. If Labor doesn't have a majority or a consensus to lead (especially by virtue of the last two sets of election results), then any of these other parties sure as hell don't, either, and so the criticism is quite moot. So just who's opinion really should be respected at the end of the day? Apparently election results no longer matter.

I see five Senators who blocked this confirmation, not one. While some have been quiet, Senators Yankee, Cassius, Goldwater, and Spiral are not thralls to Lumine.

We can react by throwing a fit, and we can make all kinds of claims about their devious motivations, but I fail to see how this will resolve our conflict. If the opposition Senators have concerns, we have ignored them. And if they wanted a circus, we have given it to them.

I still am holding out hope that someone will change their mind on the matter, but that decision will probably be made irrespective of any of this.