Lumine playing politics wih Tyrion's nomination for VP
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  Lumine playing politics wih Tyrion's nomination for VP
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Author Topic: Lumine playing politics wih Tyrion's nomination for VP  (Read 2205 times)
Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2014, 10:49:29 AM »
« edited: August 19, 2014, 10:51:10 AM by Duke »

I knew the end of The Era of Good Feeling would be different, but I never imagined it would be such a sharp contrast to the last 8 months!

Both sides are playing politics here - the administration for pledging to ram through this energy bill despite the "yapping" of 3 former presidents, senators, and 70% of the population, and the right block for blocking the VP nominee. How else can either side play it, really? Damned if they stand up for themselves, damned if they back down, right? I'm just glad I'm no longer in office.

I don't know why Lumine is being singled out here. One man cannot block a VP nominee. It takes half the senate.

Adam is right though in that nationalizing the sector was in the Labor platform for a while now and people voted for it. I didn't because I opposed nationalizing minus a real reason, but this isn't about me anymore, and thank god for that.
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2014, 11:13:28 AM »

It's worth keeping in mind that Labor's platform - which calls for the nationalization of everything from steel to some forms of agriculture - came within a single vote of failing at the last convention and inspired the right's most recent presidential candidate to leave our party when it was first introduced several months before. (DemPGH abstained from the most recent vote, FTR.)

Opinions will vary, but as a Laborite I don't put much stock in the document. As far as I am concerned, it's not an accurate statement about what it means to be a Laborite and I'll push for its repeal again at our next convention.

Right, I agree, I'm just playing devil's advocate here. I can see why the Labor would argue what they are arguing, but I also understand the other side, because I have long grown frustrated with the 'answers' given to you and I and others about this major bill.

In all honesty, I'm not sure what I'd do to handle this, although I would never have pursued such a bill in the first place knowing a problem didn't necessarily exist and knowing the negatives that will result from this bill. We can help the poor with energy prices using different methods.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2014, 11:15:30 AM »
« Edited: August 19, 2014, 11:42:59 AM by Governor Simfan »

Many on the right voted for an administration that they imagined would be considerably less left-wing than the one we have. I don't know why you are all so shocked and appalled that they now seem to be lashing out at it.

This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. Are you implying that individuals can retroactively alter their votes? TPP also voted for Lumine; do we get to recall him because he changed parties mid-term and didn't do or serve exactly as implied? If not, then guess what: there's always the next election!

Are you suggesting that voting for someone compels a person to slavishly follow their every desire, come what may? You are suggesting the opposition does not have the right to oppose the government.

For all the hubabaloo about the fact DemPGH was elected let us also member the Senate is also elected by the people, last I checked. Being elected, as you all mention, doesn't give one some sort of carte blanche. Which this administration has increasingly acted like it has a right to.

Again, I must ask a seemingly ridiculous question: are we in a parliamentary democracy? If not, then the two have nothing to do with one another in terms of a singular mandate. I still don't understand your point, as the majority of regions elected Labor representation to the Senate, the two at-large Labor candidates who won Senate seats in the past election ranked #1 and #2 in number of preferences, and a majority of voters elected a Labor President and Labor Vice-President understanding full good and well that there were 5 Labor Senators at the time and likely to be 5 after the fact.

Also, please cite what exactly DemPGH has overreached on (and before you say anything about the power debate, please make the distinction between a bill and a law).

It's so cute when you go all populist and pretend to love Athenian democracy or some equivalent.

Do you believe this nonsensical justification? Your majorities in some category or another force Senators to bow to the will of the Labor Party? Do you seriously believe this? Representatives of three parties- the TPP, Federalist, and the DRs, have come out in opposition. Last I checked there were more people in those parties combined than in Labor.

I'm sorry, but I doubt you'll be short-circuiting this.
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Cassius
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« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2014, 11:17:16 AM »

You shouldn't single out Lumine on this, given that five of us, myself included, voted against confirming Tyrion, and we're hardly his automatons. I for one (and I'm sure the rest of us are the same) bear no malice or ill-will towards Tyrion, or indeed, any of the Labour caucus in the Senate. No, we are simply using a perfectly legal procedure to attempt to halt the progression of a rather irresponsible agenda (in our eyes, and indeed the eyes of many of the Atlasian public). Were we on the right and centre (I doubt if we would have the votes to do this, if we even wanted to) to attempt to pass laws banning abortion outright and privatising government services wholesale, would you on the left not attempt to do as we are now doing?
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2014, 11:26:13 AM »

Many on the right voted for an administration that they imagined would be considerably less left-wing than the one we have. I don't know why you are all so shocked and appalled that they now seem to be lashing out at it.

This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read. Are you implying that individuals can retroactively alter their votes? TPP also voted for Lumine; do we get to recall him because he changed parties mid-term and didn't do or serve exactly as implied? If not, then guess what: there's always the next election!

Are you suggesting that voting for someone compels a person to slavishly follow their every desire, come what may? You are suggesting the opposition does not have the right to oppose the government.

For all the hubabaloo about the fact DemPGH was elected let us also member the Senate is also elected by the people, last I checked. Being elected, as you all mention, doesn't give one some sort of carte blanche. Which this administration has increasingly acted like it has a right to.

Again, I must ask a seemingly ridiculous question: are we in a parliamentary democracy? If not, then the two have nothing to do with one another in terms of a singular mandate. I still don't understand your point, as the majority of regions elected Labor representation to the Senate, the two at-large Labor candidates who won Senate seats in the past election ranked #1 and #2 in number of preferences, and a majority of voters elected a Labor President and Labor Vice-President understanding full good and well that there were 5 Labor Senators at the time and likely to be 5 after the fact.

Also, please cite what exactly DemPGH has overreached on (and before you say anything about the power debate, please make the distinction between a bill and a law).

It's so cute when you go all populist and pretend to love Athenian democracy or some equivalent.

Do believe this nonsensical justification? Your majorities in some category or another don't force Senators to bow to the will of the Labor Parties? Do you seriously believe this? Representatives of three parties- the TPP, Federalist, and the DRs, have come out in opposition. Last I checked there were more people in those parties combined than in Labor.

I'm sorry, but I doubt you'll be short-circuiting this.

Says the authoritarian. By that count, 70/170 does not equal a majority either.

You really need to stop acting like you have some pious high ground in all of this while condemning mine, because you especially are in it just to be obstinate like always. Maybe if the voters had elected NOTA to be VP your argument would make a little more sense.
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windjammer
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« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2014, 12:21:45 PM »

Well, it appears that even after my departure, I manage to cause controversy.

Well, I'm sorry for the current situation that is the direct result of my resignation.

Just to say I'm fully behind DemPGH, Tyrion, TNF,...

Senators, you still have the capacity to change your vote, please, take into consideration that as VP, I broke the tie ONLY ONCE whereas it was officially a 5 Llabor-5 Fed/DR. This vote is much more "symbolic" than anything else. Tyrion has been a good senator, and he deserves this nomination. So I really hope the Federalist and the DR will change their mind.

Just to remind all of you, the Laborites senators voted to confirm Cincinnatus as VP.

Oh and by the way, oakvale, I think you know yourself that as VP I didn't violate anything and I never used my office for personal reasons.

And just to add, Tyrion was the most moderate Llaborite senate in term of economic issues. You"re not voting for a communist, you're voting for a moderate Laborite.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2014, 12:31:40 PM »

See,  the thing is I nearly voted for DemPGH, the moderate Laborite. And look where we are. It's difficult to find such declarations of "moderate Laborites" plausible at this point; even Adam openly admitted those that don't toe the party line would face difficulties getting elected. As far as I'm concerned I'm more likely to see a unicorn than a "moderate Laborite" in a position of power...
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bore
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« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2014, 12:32:53 PM »

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A major problem is we were unaware of these concerns until final vote time.


Two other things:

Firstly, I didn't support the power bill until I got called on it, and then withdrew that support in a moderate hero way. I supported it because I failed to really follow the bill (Something I'm not proud of, but something which is also true of every senator just due to human nature) and therefore mistakenly assumed the bill would lead to something like the situation in other countries which have nationalised energy.

Secondly, if you read the senate rules, this really should not be about Tyrion being able to force through anything labor wants. For one thing, labor really isn't united enough to do that, especially given the shifting of the centre the game has seen over the last few years and months. Even if we somehow united to push through energy nationalisation though, all it would take would be an occasional post by the right, because labor can not break cloture.

Ultimately this has to come down to whether you think the public's will of electing a labor VP for 4 months should be respected or not.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2014, 12:36:45 PM »

I assume you Laborites would have eagerly supported the appointment of Robert Bork, yes?
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bore
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« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2014, 12:39:51 PM »

I assume you Laborites would have eagerly supported the appointment of Robert Bork, yes?

I supported the nomination of torie.
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2014, 12:45:37 PM »

Oh, come on. Dear Torie was nearly nominated by my predecessor and I consulted with him prior to nominating Torie. I'll not have The People's Administration turned into some firebreathing group of radicals nor will I allow The Era to be tarnished. We were just handsome boys with a radical gay agenda.
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bore
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« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2014, 12:50:11 PM »

Oh, come on. Dear Torie was nearly nominated by my predecessor and I consulted with him prior to nominating Torie. I'll not have The People's Administration turned into some firebreathing group of radicals nor will I allow The Era to be tarnished. We were just handsome boys with a radical gay agenda.

Sure, but as a republican he doesn't exactly represent my political views. Besides, in that case, as in the case of a certain other R-NY I voted against the majority of my party.

Say what you like about my position that we should let the executive branch appoint who they want, but it's not something I discovered after labor's nominees started to get voted down.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2014, 01:07:44 PM »

You're right, bore. But it would just not be logical for the opposition to just hand over control of the Senate. I think people are forgetting that aspect.
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2014, 01:13:34 PM »

Oh, come on. Dear Torie was nearly nominated by my predecessor and I consulted with him prior to nominating Torie. I'll not have The People's Administration turned into some firebreathing group of radicals nor will I allow The Era to be tarnished. We were just handsome boys with a radical gay agenda.

Sure, but as a republican he doesn't exactly represent my political views. Besides, in that case, as in the case of a certain other R-NY I voted against the majority of my party.

Say what you like about my position that we should let the executive branch appoint who they want, but it's not something I discovered after labor's nominees started to get voted down.

Right. I'm not accusing you of playing politics with your vote at all. I was merely defending my administration since I saw Torie and Cincinnatus being lumped in with this current spat, when we all know the circumstances surrounding their nominations were far different than they are right now.

I don't know what the most controversial thing I tried to do was in terms of causing an uproar. I guess it was when I refused to sign that bill that said the federal government could regulate regional/municipal parks, but even my successor shared my view on that.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2014, 06:40:03 AM »

Oh, come on. Dear Torie was nearly nominated by my predecessor and I consulted with him prior to nominating Torie. I'll not have The People's Administration turned into some firebreathing group of radicals nor will I allow The Era to be tarnished. We were just handsome boys with a radical gay agenda.

Sure, but as a republican he doesn't exactly represent my political views. Besides, in that case, as in the case of a certain other R-NY I voted against the majority of my party.

Say what you like about my position that we should let the executive branch appoint who they want, but it's not something I discovered after labor's nominees started to get voted down.

Right. I'm not accusing you of playing politics with your vote at all. I was merely defending my administration since I saw Torie and Cincinnatus being lumped in with this current spat, when we all know the circumstances surrounding their nominations were far different than they are right now.

I don't know what the most controversial thing I tried to do was in terms of causing an uproar. I guess it was when I refused to sign that bill that said the federal government could regulate regional/municipal parks, but even my successor shared my view on that.

     Consolidation was pretty controversial, though everyone involved with that project was let off more or less unscathed. I don't think any nominees were rejected over it.
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2014, 01:22:56 PM »

Oh, come on. Dear Torie was nearly nominated by my predecessor and I consulted with him prior to nominating Torie. I'll not have The People's Administration turned into some firebreathing group of radicals nor will I allow The Era to be tarnished. We were just handsome boys with a radical gay agenda.

Sure, but as a republican he doesn't exactly represent my political views. Besides, in that case, as in the case of a certain other R-NY I voted against the majority of my party.

Say what you like about my position that we should let the executive branch appoint who they want, but it's not something I discovered after labor's nominees started to get voted down.

Right. I'm not accusing you of playing politics with your vote at all. I was merely defending my administration since I saw Torie and Cincinnatus being lumped in with this current spat, when we all know the circumstances surrounding their nominations were far different than they are right now.

I don't know what the most controversial thing I tried to do was in terms of causing an uproar. I guess it was when I refused to sign that bill that said the federal government could regulate regional/municipal parks, but even my successor shared my view on that.

     Consolidation was pretty controversial, though everyone involved with that project was let off more or less unscathed. I don't think any nominees were rejected over it.

I think by in large, a small majority supported consolidation, just not nearly enough to pass 4/5ths of the regions. The amendments were not passed by 1 party through the senate - there had been a broad coalition behind it. But you're right, I forgot that consolidation was controversial by the Era's standards.
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Maxwell
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« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2014, 11:42:36 PM »

Oh, come on. Dear Torie was nearly nominated by my predecessor and I consulted with him prior to nominating Torie. I'll not have The People's Administration turned into some firebreathing group of radicals nor will I allow The Era to be tarnished. We were just handsome boys with a radical gay agenda.

Sure, but as a republican he doesn't exactly represent my political views. Besides, in that case, as in the case of a certain other R-NY I voted against the majority of my party.

Say what you like about my position that we should let the executive branch appoint who they want, but it's not something I discovered after labor's nominees started to get voted down.

Right. I'm not accusing you of playing politics with your vote at all. I was merely defending my administration since I saw Torie and Cincinnatus being lumped in with this current spat, when we all know the circumstances surrounding their nominations were far different than they are right now.

I don't know what the most controversial thing I tried to do was in terms of causing an uproar. I guess it was when I refused to sign that bill that said the federal government could regulate regional/municipal parks, but even my successor shared my view on that.

     Consolidation was pretty controversial, though everyone involved with that project was let off more or less unscathed. I don't think any nominees were rejected over it.

I think by in large, a small majority supported consolidation, just not nearly enough to pass 4/5ths of the regions. The amendments were not passed by 1 party through the senate - there had been a broad coalition behind it. But you're right, I forgot that consolidation was controversial by the Era's standards.

Consolidation wasn't as controversial because there were figures on the right that supported it, while with this there is clearly Labor on one side and the rest of the nation on the other.
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Associate Justice PiT
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« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2014, 11:46:46 PM »

Oh, come on. Dear Torie was nearly nominated by my predecessor and I consulted with him prior to nominating Torie. I'll not have The People's Administration turned into some firebreathing group of radicals nor will I allow The Era to be tarnished. We were just handsome boys with a radical gay agenda.

Sure, but as a republican he doesn't exactly represent my political views. Besides, in that case, as in the case of a certain other R-NY I voted against the majority of my party.

Say what you like about my position that we should let the executive branch appoint who they want, but it's not something I discovered after labor's nominees started to get voted down.

Right. I'm not accusing you of playing politics with your vote at all. I was merely defending my administration since I saw Torie and Cincinnatus being lumped in with this current spat, when we all know the circumstances surrounding their nominations were far different than they are right now.

I don't know what the most controversial thing I tried to do was in terms of causing an uproar. I guess it was when I refused to sign that bill that said the federal government could regulate regional/municipal parks, but even my successor shared my view on that.

     Consolidation was pretty controversial, though everyone involved with that project was let off more or less unscathed. I don't think any nominees were rejected over it.

I think by in large, a small majority supported consolidation, just not nearly enough to pass 4/5ths of the regions. The amendments were not passed by 1 party through the senate - there had been a broad coalition behind it. But you're right, I forgot that consolidation was controversial by the Era's standards.

Consolidation wasn't as controversial because there were figures on the right that supported it, while with this there is clearly Labor on one side and the rest of the nation on the other.

     I don't know that that makes it less controversial, per se, since there was an aggressive and sustained campaign against it over the course of several weeks. The result of multiple right-of-center politicians supporting it was that punishing its supporters was politically impossible, even if we had wished to do so.
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Poirot
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« Reply #43 on: August 21, 2014, 07:46:55 AM »

From what I remember, consolidation was not popular among the Federalist party members. It was accepted by some leaders in Nyman but they did so against the opinion of their members.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #44 on: August 21, 2014, 12:19:35 PM »

Well, I am treating the Amendment as another Laborite plot that must be vociferously opposed.

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HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #45 on: August 21, 2014, 03:10:36 PM »

I'm incredibly torn. If the worst happens, I think we need some kind of contingency, but on the other hand I don't want to give them an inch and have them take a mile instead...
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Deus Naturae
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« Reply #46 on: August 21, 2014, 04:05:39 PM »

The bill didn't get the attention it deserved because nobody weighed in on it, and the hand-wringing only began once everybody who lacked involvement decided to care. The nationalization of energy has been in our platform for an entire year - maybe longer? Again, it's up to people if they want to read - this wasn't some surprising development. The broader issue itself isn't something that is vociferously opposed as some here would like to think - the specific legislation is bad legislation, which is why it will be completely restructured to reflect that, and most anyone left of center will ultimately wind up supporting it because that's where the actual ideological balance of the game is.
I did. You have a point in that it's pretty ridiculous that none of the Federalist Senators said anything throughout most of the entire debate (and then complained about how reluctant they were to vote against socialism), but it doesn't exactly reflect well on your side that I never got any kind of response from anyone until Nix and Oakvale joined in to oppose the bill, and probably never would have if they hadn't. Even when people did bother to respond at all, they basically just said "well it's my ideology so yeah" or "you realize that not all government is bad right??"
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #47 on: August 24, 2014, 04:30:01 PM »

The bill didn't get the attention it deserved because nobody weighed in on it, and the hand-wringing only began once everybody who lacked involvement decided to care. The nationalization of energy has been in our platform for an entire year - maybe longer? Again, it's up to people if they want to read - this wasn't some surprising development. The broader issue itself isn't something that is vociferously opposed as some here would like to think - the specific legislation is bad legislation, which is why it will be completely restructured to reflect that, and most anyone left of center will ultimately wind up supporting it because that's where the actual ideological balance of the game is.
I did. You have a point in that it's pretty ridiculous that none of the Federalist Senators said anything throughout most of the entire debate (and then complained about how reluctant they were to vote against socialism),

That is patently false. I said what I wanted last February, last June in campaigns, in the previous omnibus nationalization thread and even at the beginning of this debate in question if I recall correctly. I wanted a competitive model with non-profits competing against the monopolies that present exist, something I would think most libertarians also agree with. I reluctantly voted nay too recognize that a potential opportunity to advance that option was being lost partially because of the very socialist approach you are decrying and accusing me of supporting. Since when did competition become socialist. You guys loved it when shua and I took a similar approach to healthcare just two months ago.
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