Gallup: Plurality of Americans skeptical about evolution
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Author Topic: Gallup: Plurality of Americans skeptical about evolution  (Read 3876 times)
Miles
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« on: August 21, 2014, 11:32:21 PM »

Link.

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bedstuy
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« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2014, 11:35:47 PM »

Dear Lord, Americans are ignorant.  That's just sad.
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Blue3
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« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2014, 12:51:21 AM »

This is much better than previous polls. And at least it includes the option of God/evolution co-existing, which many Christians believe.
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Person Man
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« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2014, 08:27:13 AM »

This is much better than previous polls. And at least it includes the option of God/evolution co-existing, which many Christians believe.

This. I can believe that 90% have an opinion and that they split 55% to 45% towards evolution. I would say that this number would coalesce around party lines if it wasn't for very religious minorities voting Democratic and wealthy/Paulesque/Libertarian white Republicans.
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King
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« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2014, 10:53:09 AM »

Looks like 50% evolution 42% creationism to me.

And 19% for atheistic evolution is some serious movement, even though the gains are mainly shifts within the evolution crowd and no conversions.
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Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck
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« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2014, 07:12:00 PM »

Looks like 50% evolution 42% creationism to me.

And 19% for atheistic evolution is some serious movement, even though the gains are mainly shifts within the evolution crowd and no conversions.

The fact that more and more evolution rationalists are making the jump to atheism is splendid news!
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« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2014, 08:49:51 PM »

Looks like 50% evolution 42% creationism to me.

And 19% for atheistic evolution is some serious movement, even though the gains are mainly shifts within the evolution crowd and no conversions.

The fact that more and more evolution rationalists are making the jump to atheism is splendid news!

A good number of those people are the sorts who probably characterize themselves as deists if they're familiar with the term.
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GaussLaw
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« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2014, 10:23:17 PM »

While Ken Ham may be wrong, he actually has a point.  One of Ham's biggest arguments against accepting evolution was that if people accepted evolution, they'd abandon the Bible and the church (the idea of deep time, many pre-religious cultures makes religion harder to justify).  The movement of people from pro-evolution Christianity to atheism/agnosticism/deism/"just spiritual" while the creationist line remaining flat shows that evolution may turn people away from God.

As an old Earth creationist, I do think it's hard to justify ancient civilizations, especially in Oceania/Native America, with the God of the Bible.  But that cognitive discomfort isn't going to make me abandon all reason and say the Earth is 6000 years old.
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jfern
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« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2014, 10:43:54 PM »

Well, there's been some improvement, but pretty sad that evolution only wins 50-42 even with the moderate hero cop out.
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DemPGH
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« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2014, 11:47:25 AM »
« Edited: August 23, 2014, 11:50:10 AM by DemPGH, President »

Yeah, it's slightly improving, but I honestly wonder how well the American public actually understands evolution, let alone the scope of geologic time. It's a common fallacy to hear someone say, "We didn't come from no apes!" Well, no. We are apes. We evolved from something that's not here anymore.

You know, if a person wants to adopt the personal belief that God guides evolution, fine, but understand the process first! I also think a lot of folks for what are probably sociological reasons have a hard time accepting that something can change over time since they don't see it happening. I mean, global warming is happening and they reject that, so that they reject a process that they can't see in front of them - and have only a sketchy understanding of - is probably the main issue.  
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pbrower2a
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« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2014, 07:41:20 PM »

42% of Americans believe essentially in young-earth creationism. It's no wonder that we are losing ground to other countries.

If one wants to put God in the universe, then talk about His Presence in establishing mathematical and physical laws. Change either the Periodic Law of the elements or the binding curve of nuclear energy, and everything goes awry. Allow 4 electrons in the s shell of the atom, and hydrogen is no longer a gas. Make calcium the low point of the binding curve of energy and we lack enough iron for hemoglobin, let alone copper for certain technologies essential to civilization. Make zirconium the low point of the binding curve of energy and we have much suffocating krypton in the lower atmosphere of a planet.  Make the carbon atom too large, and respiration becomes difficult because carbon dioxide forms a glassy solid instead of a mobile gas. 
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memphis
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« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2014, 11:24:31 PM »

Gee, I wonder why it is that such a enormous percent of our population is so willfully ignorant about a basic principle of reality Roll Eyes
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Lief 🗽
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« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2014, 11:51:44 PM »

Interesting that the movement has basically entirely been from people believing in theistic evolution to non-theistic evolution, with the creationist people staying constant.
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jfern
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« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2014, 11:52:23 PM »

We evolved from something that's not here anymore.

Yes, but you can see some human in this chimp.

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RR1997
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« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2014, 09:21:51 AM »

This makes me feel very sad. Why do we Americans have to be so ignorant?
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Cassius
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« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2014, 09:53:24 AM »

Ah, another issue of vanishingly little consequence. I mean, really and truly, I doubt that even a majority of those who said they believed in 'non-theistic' evolution could say more about it other than 'we came from the apes' or 'survival of the fittest innit'. In the end, an understanding of the principles of evolution is pretty f-ing worthless unless you are or want to be a biology teacher, a biologist or possibly a medical practicioner (and no, those involved in animal husbandry do not count, as humans found that process easy enough long before evolutionary science even came to the fore).

It seems that this poll is just another excuse for the clever chappies to gush about the ignorance of the 'dumbs' (or whatever it is in Atlas parlance) despite the fact that most of the 'dumbs' a probably perfectly content.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2014, 11:45:31 AM »

Ah, another issue of vanishingly little consequence. I mean, really and truly, I doubt that even a majority of those who said they believed in 'non-theistic' evolution could say more about it other than 'we came from the apes' or 'survival of the fittest innit'. In the end, an understanding of the principles of evolution is pretty f-ing worthless unless you are or want to be a biology teacher, a biologist or possibly a medical practicioner (and no, those involved in animal husbandry do not count, as humans found that process easy enough long before evolutionary science even came to the fore).

It seems that this poll is just another excuse for the clever chappies to gush about the ignorance of the 'dumbs' (or whatever it is in Atlas parlance) despite the fact that most of the 'dumbs' a probably perfectly content.

This. If we really want to worry about what Americans don't know or understand, our priorities should be on:

1) Literacy
2) Personal finance
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bedstuy
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« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2014, 01:36:49 PM »

Ah, another issue of vanishingly little consequence. I mean, really and truly, I doubt that even a majority of those who said they believed in 'non-theistic' evolution could say more about it other than 'we came from the apes' or 'survival of the fittest innit'. In the end, an understanding of the principles of evolution is pretty f-ing worthless unless you are or want to be a biology teacher, a biologist or possibly a medical practicioner (and no, those involved in animal husbandry do not count, as humans found that process easy enough long before evolutionary science even came to the fore).

It seems that this poll is just another excuse for the clever chappies to gush about the ignorance of the 'dumbs' (or whatever it is in Atlas parlance) despite the fact that most of the 'dumbs' a probably perfectly content.

That's not only a stupid point, but it's wrong on its own terms as well.

Evolution is key to the fastest growing industries of the economy like healthcare and biotechnology.  When you're in school, you have no idea whether you're going to work in those fields.  So, it only makes sense to educate people in the basic principles of biology as it does for chemistry and physics.  If you've learned about evolution in school and you don't believe in it, you're either stupid or willfully ignorant.  Stupidity and willful ignorance are not exactly good traits.

But, on top of that, this whole conservative idea that all knowledge must be immediately practical for everyone's daily life is sickening.  If nobody ever pursued knowledge for its own sake, we'd all be wiping our butts with rocks in the caves we lived in.  We should all be curious about the world and open to learning new things.  And, it's actually practical.  If everyone has a base of knowledge in a range of concepts, a few of them will take those basic concepts and discover new things.
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Cassius
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« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2014, 05:47:48 PM »

Ah, another issue of vanishingly little consequence. I mean, really and truly, I doubt that even a majority of those who said they believed in 'non-theistic' evolution could say more about it other than 'we came from the apes' or 'survival of the fittest innit'. In the end, an understanding of the principles of evolution is pretty f-ing worthless unless you are or want to be a biology teacher, a biologist or possibly a medical practicioner (and no, those involved in animal husbandry do not count, as humans found that process easy enough long before evolutionary science even came to the fore).

It seems that this poll is just another excuse for the clever chappies to gush about the ignorance of the 'dumbs' (or whatever it is in Atlas parlance) despite the fact that most of the 'dumbs' a probably perfectly content.

That's not only a stupid point, but it's wrong on its own terms as well.

Evolution is key to the fastest growing industries of the economy like healthcare and biotechnology.  When you're in school, you have no idea whether you're going to work in those fields.  So, it only makes sense to educate people in the basic principles of biology as it does for chemistry and physics.  If you've learned about evolution in school and you don't believe in it, you're either stupid or willfully ignorant.  Stupidity and willful ignorance are not exactly good traits.

But, on top of that, this whole conservative idea that all knowledge must be immediately practical for everyone's daily life is sickening.  If nobody ever pursued knowledge for its own sake, we'd all be wiping our butts with rocks in the caves we lived in.  We should all be curious about the world and open to learning new things.  And, it's actually practical.  If everyone has a base of knowledge in a range of concepts, a few of them will take those basic concepts and discover new things.

An understanding of evolution may be important to the sectors of the economy that you mentioned, but its worth pointing out that those sectors aren't simply going to be employing scientists and researchers. For every one scientist employed they'll be several accountants, tea ladies and security guards employed by the firms in question, who certainly won't need an understanding of the theory of evolution in order to do their jobs. It does make some sense to educate people on the basic principles of biology, but, at the end of the day, I repeat, it matters little that those who aren't going onto higher study in Biology (or related degree) don't understand evolution. I mean, I vaguely know as to what evolution entails, but I couldn't for the life of me explain it properly. But, fortunately, I don't need to, since I do not aim to have anything to do with the theory of evolution, educationally or career wise.

As to your second point, I never said that. I was attempting to rebut the hissy fit thrown by some posters in this thread over the fact that some Americans don't believe in evolution. I obviously don't believe that we should only know information that is directly useful to our lives here and now; on the other hand, I am not of the opinion that a belief in the theory of evolution is essential to getting through life smoothely. If 40% of Americans said that they could not speak a word of English, or add two and two together, then I would agree that that would be concerning, as both of those are essential to living in modern America. Understanding an abstract scientific theory as to how life came to be in its present form is not essential, and thus people should not worry about it.

Let me put it another way; in British schools at least, most children, when they start secondary school, are taught in History about the basics of using sources to analyse History; whether a source is primary or secondary, whether it is biased or unbiased etc. It is highly important that kids who go onto study History at a higher level learn about the importance of sourcework; for those that don't, sourcework is an irrelevance, and so its not a great crisis if those who don't study History at a higher level don't understand the importance of sourcework. The same applies to evolution.

You commented that 'if nobody pursued knowledge for its own sake, we'd all be wiping our butts with rocks in the caves'. That is nonsense. We did not expand and develop as a race through pursuit of 'knowledge for its own sake', we did so for practical reasons, e.g ouch, this rock is a bit painful, that animal hide is so much softer. All to often, being 'curious' about the world and 'pursuing knowledge for its own sake' are highly dangerous things, with the potential to rock the boat for no good reason. Just look at the French writers of the 18th century, picking at the scabs that covered the French monarchy and looking at the rot that existed inside, or the Marxists of the 19th century, questioning the authority of Kings, Popes and men of means. Far too often, trying to do 'new things' simply leads to lots of unneccessary pain and hurt being caused. Far better to stick to what one already knows, and the established way of doing things.
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bedstuy
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« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2014, 06:11:42 PM »

Ah, another issue of vanishingly little consequence. I mean, really and truly, I doubt that even a majority of those who said they believed in 'non-theistic' evolution could say more about it other than 'we came from the apes' or 'survival of the fittest innit'. In the end, an understanding of the principles of evolution is pretty f-ing worthless unless you are or want to be a biology teacher, a biologist or possibly a medical practicioner (and no, those involved in animal husbandry do not count, as humans found that process easy enough long before evolutionary science even came to the fore).

It seems that this poll is just another excuse for the clever chappies to gush about the ignorance of the 'dumbs' (or whatever it is in Atlas parlance) despite the fact that most of the 'dumbs' a probably perfectly content.

That's not only a stupid point, but it's wrong on its own terms as well.

Evolution is key to the fastest growing industries of the economy like healthcare and biotechnology.  When you're in school, you have no idea whether you're going to work in those fields.  So, it only makes sense to educate people in the basic principles of biology as it does for chemistry and physics.  If you've learned about evolution in school and you don't believe in it, you're either stupid or willfully ignorant.  Stupidity and willful ignorance are not exactly good traits.

But, on top of that, this whole conservative idea that all knowledge must be immediately practical for everyone's daily life is sickening.  If nobody ever pursued knowledge for its own sake, we'd all be wiping our butts with rocks in the caves we lived in.  We should all be curious about the world and open to learning new things.  And, it's actually practical.  If everyone has a base of knowledge in a range of concepts, a few of them will take those basic concepts and discover new things.

An understanding of evolution may be important to the sectors of the economy that you mentioned, but its worth pointing out that those sectors aren't simply going to be employing scientists and researchers. For every one scientist employed they'll be several accountants, tea ladies and security guards employed by the firms in question, who certainly won't need an understanding of the theory of evolution in order to do their jobs. It does make some sense to educate people on the basic principles of biology, but, at the end of the day, I repeat, it matters little that those who aren't going onto higher study in Biology (or related degree) don't understand evolution. I mean, I vaguely know as to what evolution entails, but I couldn't for the life of me explain it properly. But, fortunately, I don't need to, since I do not aim to have anything to do with the theory of evolution, educationally or career wise.

As to your second point, I never said that. I was attempting to rebut the hissy fit thrown by some posters in this thread over the fact that some Americans don't believe in evolution. I obviously don't believe that we should only know information that is directly useful to our lives here and now; on the other hand, I am not of the opinion that a belief in the theory of evolution is essential to getting through life smoothely. If 40% of Americans said that they could not speak a word of English, or add two and two together, then I would agree that that would be concerning, as both of those are essential to living in modern America. Understanding an abstract scientific theory as to how life came to be in its present form is not essential, and thus people should not worry about it.

Let me put it another way; in British schools at least, most children, when they start secondary school, are taught in History about the basics of using sources to analyse History; whether a source is primary or secondary, whether it is biased or unbiased etc. It is highly important that kids who go onto study History at a higher level learn about the importance of sourcework; for those that don't, sourcework is an irrelevance, and so its not a great crisis if those who don't study History at a higher level don't understand the importance of sourcework. The same applies to evolution.

You commented that 'if nobody pursued knowledge for its own sake, we'd all be wiping our butts with rocks in the caves'. That is nonsense. We did not expand and develop as a race through pursuit of 'knowledge for its own sake', we did so for practical reasons, e.g ouch, this rock is a bit painful, that animal hide is so much softer. All to often, being 'curious' about the world and 'pursuing knowledge for its own sake' are highly dangerous things, with the potential to rock the boat for no good reason. Just look at the French writers of the 18th century, picking at the scabs that covered the French monarchy and looking at the rot that existed inside, or the Marxists of the 19th century, questioning the authority of Kings, Popes and men of means. Far too often, trying to do 'new things' simply leads to lots of unneccessary pain and hurt being caused. Far better to stick to what one already knows, and the established way of doing things.

The employment question is again not a strong one.  Schools don't know who is going to need biological understanding in the future.  Evolution is the main biology theory, why not just take a week or two of class and explain the basics of evolution.  It's not difficult to grasp at all, it's common sense.

Honestly. you just lose me with that attitude of being bored by evolution.  How could you not be curious about how life on earth came to be?  Personally, I don't use evolution in my job either.  I don't really use my science classes at all to make money.  But, they're still relevant to me.  Science changes the way you see the world.  You see things differently because you know why things are the way they are.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2014, 07:19:13 PM »

It should surprise no one that conservatives would have little interest in evolution.  After all conservatism is at its core a philosophy that thinks change is bad.  Evolution, with its message of adapt or die, runs directly counter to the aspirations of conservatism, and that's before one considers any theological impact caused by an acceptance of evolution.
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TJ in Oregon
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« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2014, 07:52:31 PM »

It should surprise no one that conservatives would have little interest in evolution.  After all conservatism is at its core a philosophy that thinks change is bad.  Evolution, with its message of adapt or die, runs directly counter to the aspirations of conservatism, and that's before one considers any theological impact caused by an acceptance of evolution.

By that logic one can just as easily say it should surprise no one that progressives would have little interest in thermodynamics.  After all progressivism is at its core a philosophy that thinks change is good.  Thermodynamics tells us "social progress" is actually just a progression toward the entropic heat death of the universe guaranteeing the destruction of all life and worldly pleasure.

I don't think very many people actually think that way. The reason why some conservatives don't believe in evolution is for theological reasons not an because they see it as saying they need to change or die. It challenges many characteristic tenants of American Christianity and its views on Biblical literalism and Biblical historicity that many Christians don't feel comfortable with having challenged.

The reason why a lot of Americans don't believe in evolution isn't because people have banned it from being taught or neutered its message in schools. That is an effect and not a cause. The reason is that American culture contains a narrative of a false dichotomy between faith and science where the two must be seen as opposed. Public schools are not permitted to discuss such topics with much latitude for a variety of reasons, some justifiably, but absent a discussion involving faith, reason, what science is, what it tells us, and what it can't, there are a lot of people who will simply reject evolution as a "theory" (despite seemingly no one having the faintest clue what that means). Thus we continue to circle the wagons and will do so for some time. Bludgeoning people with outrage will convince no one however; that would require explaining it to them in earnest in ways they have never considered. It probably needs to be the right person to do the convincing too. St. Augustine may work better than Richard Dawkins.

On its importance, the fact that evolution is a litmus test in and of itself is a disservice to science as many of those who reject it might have made good chemists or computer programmers or something of the like had they a greater appreciation for science as a whole. It clearly is critical to understanding most parts of biology and it's tough to see many people who disbelieve in evolution entirely as successful biologists or most kinds of doctors. In my opinion though, if I were to lament about one thing in the STEM area hampering our technological and economic development, it would be the number of high schoolers who are not proficient in calculus.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2014, 08:44:56 PM »

It should surprise no one that conservatives would have little interest in evolution.  After all conservatism is at its core a philosophy that thinks change is bad.  Evolution, with its message of adapt or die, runs directly counter to the aspirations of conservatism, and that's before one considers any theological impact caused by an acceptance of evolution.

By that logic one can just as easily say it should surprise no one that progressives would have little interest in thermodynamics.  After all progressivism is at its core a philosophy that thinks change is good.  Thermodynamics tells us "social progress" is actually just a progression toward the entropic heat death of the universe guaranteeing the destruction of all life and worldly pleasure.

Progressivism does not hold that all change is good, but that it possible to choose those changes that improve society.  Now since most progressives today think society would be better if it were more equal, and since equalization of conditions is when applied to physics equivalent to an increase in entropy,, it seems to me one could argue that thermodynamics should be attractive to progressives, if one equates progressivism with egalitarianism.
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TJ in Oregon
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« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2014, 09:08:25 PM »

It should surprise no one that conservatives would have little interest in evolution.  After all conservatism is at its core a philosophy that thinks change is bad.  Evolution, with its message of adapt or die, runs directly counter to the aspirations of conservatism, and that's before one considers any theological impact caused by an acceptance of evolution.

By that logic one can just as easily say it should surprise no one that progressives would have little interest in thermodynamics.  After all progressivism is at its core a philosophy that thinks change is good.  Thermodynamics tells us "social progress" is actually just a progression toward the entropic heat death of the universe guaranteeing the destruction of all life and worldly pleasure.

Progressivism does not hold that all change is good, but that it possible to choose those changes that improve society.  Now since most progressives today think society would be better if it were more equal, and since equalization of conditions is when applied to physics equivalent to an increase in entropy,, it seems to me one could argue that thermodynamics should be attractive to progressives, if one equates progressivism with egalitarianism.

By that logic progressives distrust to fear thermodynamics for showing that if we attained equality the result would not be pleasure but the entropic heat death of the universe.

If you equate evolution with competition between organisms to ascertain which is the fittest, conservatives ought to love it as they tend to believe competition is good and challenges each member to be his best. An evolutionless world would look to many American conservatives as the biological equivalent of the government: no real competition.

We can probably take all these ideas a lot of different directions, but do you think anyone actually thinks this way?
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« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2014, 09:17:21 PM »

I think the bigger reason that people deny evolution is that it cuts against the idea that God exists and humans have special properties like an afterlife.  Evolution makes humans out to be one type of primate like any other which appeared without the intervention of any gods.
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