Babble with Foucaulf about philosophy
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
May 06, 2024, 03:56:49 PM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Discussion
  Religion & Philosophy (Moderator: Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.)
  Babble with Foucaulf about philosophy
« previous next »
Pages: [1]
Author Topic: Babble with Foucaulf about philosophy  (Read 564 times)
Foucaulf
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,050
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« on: August 23, 2014, 04:59:03 PM »

Philosophy's not my absolute advantage, but no one else seems to bring it up much. Here's my attempt to change that.

I have no formal training in philosophy, but I have interests in ethics. Maybe I can try to explain concepts in philosophy of science and epistemology too. By ethics I mean "secular ethics" - the study of how human reason can formulate rules on what's right and wrong. As a discipline it was first suggested by the works of Kant and the utilitarians, and fostered throughout the 20th century. My belief in the power of secular ethics is one reason I can swear off religion.

I'll probably refer to the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy a lot; while not the best resource, it is one of few that's professional and easily accessible. With that said, ask away.
Logged
Tetro Kornbluth
Gully Foyle
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,853
Ireland, Republic of


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2014, 05:21:04 PM »

What's your opinion of the epistemological worth of economic theories, specifically the ones you have studied and have significant knowledge of (I'll leave you to define significant)

What's your opinion of the role of hypotheticals in the teaching of ethics (I'm especially thinking of things like The Trolley problem, which is frequently used to teach ethical dilemmas)
Logged
Ban my account ffs!
snowguy716
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 22,632
Austria


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2014, 09:09:10 PM »

Hypotheticals are a good way to relate on ethics, but they are an imperfect tool because everyone's experience and perception will be different... So tailoring the hypothetical to their experience is necessary to allow them to relate to the ethic more fully... But that is difficult to do.
Logged
Foucaulf
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,050
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2014, 12:35:26 PM »

As first questions go these two are quite deep! I'll take a whack at them

What's your opinion of the epistemological worth of economic theories, specifically the ones you have studied and have significant knowledge of (I'll leave you to define significant)

Like a philosopher would do, the first question is to ask "epistemological worth". Let us take it as its ability to justify its results as knowledge. Of course I was reading a book about how economics is not a science, but that does not mean it has no epistemological worth. Rosenberg, who wrote the book, starts it out explictly saying he wants to show economics and economists' accepted standard for knowledge - science is best - are incompatible. (He's also an outspoken atheist, if that means anything.)

The book is also twenty years old and it shows. Its greatest criticisms are hurled at general equilibrium theory, the demonstration of how all the markets in our economy can clear simultaneously. In terms of further research potential, it is also dead. Economics have moved on to field experiments, of having people play games in labs to test micro theory and of randomized controlled trials (RCTs) to figure out which policies work best on target populations.

Is it any better at prediction, though? Not really. Now it's game theory which has to come to terms with incorporating information in its theories, inventing a bunch of new equilibrium concepts along the way. At least one game theorist, Ariel Rubinstein, has come out and said game theory cannot predict anything. RCTs is one of many ways in which econometricians, understanding the potentially infinite ways tastes and expectations can confound estimated effects, solve the problem not by inventing better methods but by limiting the scope of their questions. An RCT on building wells in a Kenyan county gives information to the officials in said Kenyan well, but is not generalizable elsewhere.

I have left out one obvious angle: the predictive ability of macroeconomics. Even though most conventional models failed to predict the financial crisis, you could also say that models lead to insight behind the "Great Moderation", about three decades of lower volatility in the economy. It could also be practically better to have predictions than to have none at all. Yet to say macro theory is superior over doomsayers and goldbugs isn't saying much, since in many of those other cases there is no standard for which the doomsayers use to accept or reject evidence. That doesn't mean macroeconomists have a standard that isn't objectionable.

There is a sense in which economic theory, being logically consistent, is trivially knowledge. But I do not know about economic theory's ability to set a standard that someone can employ to figure out true facts about the world. Economic theory tells you a few "deep truths" about how people behave in a market economy - but how do those deep truths relate with culture, biases, "shallow truths"? Theory can control for them and model them, but you still have no standard that can reject propositions like "the culture of social group X matters among X."

Economists are more about pulling the blinds over the possible, implementers of beliefs. Some libertarian economists, who advocate for the abolition of certain policies, are testament to this fact: the goal of their research on a world tainted by these policies is to conceive a world where their research cannot be a standard for thinking about it.
Logged
Foucaulf
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,050
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2014, 12:37:00 PM »

What's your opinion of the role of hypotheticals in the teaching of ethics (I'm especially thinking of things like The Trolley problem, which is frequently used to teach ethical dilemmas)

It's not just the trolley problem: it's also stuff like the veil of ignorance, social contracts, and other "ideal theories". The essence of these problems is abstraction: environmental factors, which can be the source for disagreement, are ignored to focus on stark differences in what one should do.

I can think of at least three criticisms against it (Allen Wood has a nice essay about these problems and I cribbed from him):

IT EXAGGERATES CONTRADICTIONS. The abstraction removes morally salient factors in our lives to show how our common sense is inconsistent. The classic trolley problem wants to show the contradiction in our wanting to save five over one, but not do so when doing so involves pushing a fat man on the tracks. But would someone be obviously wrong if they say "in both cases I chose the option that made me feel least bad," or "in both cases I chose what I am legally obligated to do"?

IT ABSOLVES RESPONSIBILITY. The abstraction removes morally salient actors in our lives to show how our common sense is inconsistent. The most obvious reaction to a trolley problem is to say "why the hell was there a careening trolley in the first place?" and sue the trolley company. Same thing goes for the veil of ignorance/Rawlsian contractualism, which abstracts out racial disparities and all.

IT WARPS HOW WE SHOULD TREAT EXTREME SCENARIOES.
The death of anyone is a tragedy, and maybe reacting to it through convoluted argument is morally questionable. And, again, when decreasing the amount of evil done is it really so important to deeply analyze a perpetrator's motivations? Wouldn't it be harder to come to solutions if people are deeply disagreeing over what to do?

It's also worth noting that the trolley problem is usually used to introduce the so-called "big division" in ethics: utilitarianism (actions are only right by their consequences) and deontology (actions are not only right by their consequences). With the revival in virtue ethics (being good is to possess a certain character in life), this division isn't as true. Nor do these divides fundamentally separate people on its sides: a utilitarian who thinks one's close family provide greater value in one's life will agree in practice much more with a deontologist who believes in special duties to family members than with an impersonal utilitarian (like Peter "kill disabled children" Singer).

The education of ethics is still a work in progress. I don't think imagined cases should be part of it. It would be better to focus not on how we respond to ethical theories, but how to create ethical arguments: whether the death penalty should exist, for the hell of it. As we rediscover arguments, we can classify them accordingly.

Ironically, trolley problems may be better as questions raised in lab experiments by moral psychologists to see which features of a situation incite feelings of rightness.
Logged
Pages: [1]  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.029 seconds with 11 queries.