Americans both support unions and right to work laws

[KCDem]

Average Americans are uninformed and hold contradictory political views. News at 11...

[Deus Naturae]

I still find it amazing that only 1/3 of Republicans support the existence of unions.  Most if not all of the conservative-leaning people I've talked to acknowledge the need for workers to have representation, but then again, I live in New Jersey. 

That's not what the question asked.

[angus]

True.

There seems to be some confusion.  The irony is that folks posting here seem very confused, yet they claim that the people answering the poll are confused.  Let's clear this up:  The folks answering the poll question are not confused.  They were asked the questions, therefore they know what questions they were answering.  

Here are the questions relevant to this thread:

1. "Do you approve or disapprove of labor unions?"

53% claim that they approve.  I approve of them as well.  (Whether I want to be represented by one or want to join one is a different question, and one which was not asked in this poll.)

2.  "Some states have passed right-to-work or open shop laws that say each worker has the right to hold his job in a company, whether he joins a labor union or not.  If you were asked to vote on such a law, would you vote for it or against it?"

I would definitely vote for such a law, and I am not surprised that a majority (71%) of respondents in the poll would also vote in favor of such a law.

There is no evidence of confusion among those answering the poll questions.  Moreover, it should not come as a surprise that most folks are, simultaneously, tolerant of the idea of the existence of unions but leary of having laws which allow them to operated in a heavy-handed way.

[dead0man]

You expected something more from our Red Staters?

"Americans don't agree with me about something?  The idiots must have been fooled by the all powerful GOP PR machine!"

[Bandit3 the Worker]

If you think you shouldn't have to join a union, then don't join one. It's that simple.

[ElectionsGuy]

This thread shows that some here are not afraid to be completely condescending when public opinion doesn't go their way.

[Bandit3 the Worker]

I want to know what would happen if you run a small business, and your religion requires you to allow unions and free bargaining. Wouldn't a "right-to-work" law violate freedom of religion?

[Simfan34]

...what?

[All Along The Watchtower]

You expected something more from our Red Staters?

"Americans don't agree with me about something?  The idiots must have been fooled by the all powerful GOP PR machine!"

Well I never said they were idiots. Nice strawman though. I did say that everyone (including liberals, yes) is influenced to one degree or another by the American mass media, which is closely tied to corporate interests who have their own agenda that perhaps is not in the best interests of most people.  How is that controversial?

[Negusa Nagast 🚀]

Unions and "right to work" laws are not mutually exclusive.

[Indy Texas]

Unions and "right to work" laws are not mutually exclusive.

No, but in practice, if a certain worker or workers start attempting to start a union, it would be very easy for an employer to get rid of those "troublemakers" and replace them with more pliable employees.

Or a manager whose unionized employees tried to bargain collectively could simply fire them all and replace them with new people who would receive a Wal-Mart-style "Unions are bad, mmkay?" orientation session upon hiring.

The problem with unions is that they are largely a network good where there's little to no point in joining one unless everyone else does too.

[Joe Republic]

You expected something more from our Red Staters?

"Americans don't agree with me about something?  The idiots must have been fooled by the all powerful GOP PR machine!"

This thread shows that some here are not afraid to be completely condescending when public opinion doesn't go their way.

How about we continue to complain about the impressionable general public (you know, those people who don't believe in evolution or global warming?) being tricked into supporting all kinds of horrific policies by a wealthy oligarchy, and you guys can keep complaining about us for pointing it out?  I won't mind!

[dead0man]

You got it bro!

[NHLiberal]

People support minimum wage - See people want to raise the minimum wage, dumb conservatives.

People support Right-to-Work - Well, people just don't know what right to work is.

^^ Posters on this forum.

I think the fallacy here though is that when you say "minimum wage increase," it's pretty obvious what that means-- an increase in the minimum wage. But, to the average American, it's not immediately apparent that "right to work" means what it does, prohibiting collective bargaining by public sector unions. So to say polls showing people support increasing the minimum wage means people support increasing the minimum wage but polls showing people support RTW doesn't actually mean people support RTW is actually a very fair assessment. Given the high approval rating for unions, it's pretty likely that when asked about the specific provisions of RTW, people who initially say they support it won't support them, just like when asked about the specific provisions of the ACA, people support them even though they oppose "Obamacare."

[Bandit3 the Worker]

I'd be dead by now if it wasn't for unions. That is literally true.

[pbrower2a]

"Right to work" is in practice Orwellian spin on a corporate agenda to eviscerate unions if outlawing them is impossible. 

[Deus Naturae]

People support minimum wage - See people want to raise the minimum wage, dumb conservatives.

People support Right-to-Work - Well, people just don't know what right to work is.

^^ Posters on this forum.

I think the fallacy here though is that when you say "minimum wage increase," it's pretty obvious what that means-- an increase in the minimum wage. But, to the average American, it's not immediately apparent that "right to work" means what it does, prohibiting collective bargaining by public sector unions.

That's not what right-to-work is. I think you're confusing it with the collective bargaining reforms passed in Wisconsin, which weren't RTW (Walker wasn't able to get that passed). RTW has nothing to do with public-sector unions; it restricts private-sector union security agreements.

[Person Man]

"Right to Work" simply means that the union must be responsible for the collective bargaining of non-union members that work in the same bargaining unit. Without "Right to Work", only union members can work in that bargaining unit.  That's why they call it "Right to Work" because it makes a worker entitled to work notwithstanding union status.

Like many have said, it makes it easier for employers to fire unions and hire more docile employees. However, the boss could always find out who didn't like the union in the past. I think the main issue is that some workers are getting collective bargaining for free. The problem with simply saying that people who don't pay for collective bargain get no collective bargaining is that the boss would then not necessarily have to collective bargain anymore.

The one thing that a union can do to make itself relevant in the modern era is to create its own professional organizations(like doctors, lawyers, engineers, contractors et al.) and cooperative producers/employee owned companies. Then again, if that was a viable alternative, there would be more employees doing more of that. This is probably because there is a lot of work in low paying fields that many employees considered "temporary setbacks" to employed in. There is also the possibility that all the work that's the easiest to get is with companies whose business models have very low profit margins.

Maybe if unions continue to stagnate/deteriorate and industry continues to change, it may be time to "start over" with labor and try something else.
 

[NHLiberal]

People support minimum wage - See people want to raise the minimum wage, dumb conservatives.

People support Right-to-Work - Well, people just don't know what right to work is.

^^ Posters on this forum.

I think the fallacy here though is that when you say "minimum wage increase," it's pretty obvious what that means-- an increase in the minimum wage. But, to the average American, it's not immediately apparent that "right to work" means what it does, prohibiting collective bargaining by public sector unions.

That's not what right-to-work is. I think you're confusing it with the collective bargaining reforms passed in Wisconsin, which weren't RTW (Walker wasn't able to get that passed). RTW has nothing to do with public-sector unions; it restricts private-sector union security agreements.

Yup, sorry, I got mixed up, but the same point still stands. Minimum wage increase obviously means what it says; the meaning of right to work is not obvious from the name and it sounds like something nice. So that sort of response that EG seemed to mock is actually perfectly legitimate.

[pbrower2a]

Precisely. "Right-to-Work" bills do not create jobs. They are intended to reduce the pay on many jobs. If they create jobs it is because economic elites get more income with which to hire more domestic workers.