Woman, mattress, rape, performance art

[Simfan34]

Student vows to carry mattress everywhere until her alleged rapist is expelled

(It's not the best article, but I just wanted to show this isn't some non-event no-one outside certain circles cares about. This is a much more informative one.)

I'm not particularly in the mood at the moment to go and describe my thoughts about this, not only because I am tired but also because they are so confused, ill-formed, and convoluted that I've tried suppressing them altogether. This is perhaps because any real opinion is predicated on one of two extremes, neither of which are particularly pleasant, or plausible for that matter.

-The administrative system and police are completely and utterly useless and no stock should be placed in their actions; despite the complete and utter lack of evidence the rapist must be punished, due process be damned.

-The woman is lying through her teeth, as are the several other women (two or three, I think) who have alleged this man raped them, and she is seeking to exploit her false tragedy for blatant self promotion and media attention, and to manipulate the university.

I mean... I fail to see a middle ground here. Which is why it's so awful. Also here are some key phrases of other bad things:

Performance art
Campus activism
Evidence
Phasing of consent
Mechanics of anal sex
Witch hunt
Media involvement
University disciplinary panel

So I am... interested in your... opinions on this... matter.

[Joe Republic]

Oooo, a Republican poster creating a thread about rape.  And in which "she's lying through her teeth", too!

Do go on.  *grabs popcorn*

[Antonio the Sixth]

When dealing with rape, most administrative systems and police throughout the country tend to be, not only completely and utterly useless, but actually downright nefarious. This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone who's actually paying any attention.

[dead0man]

Is Columbia one of the schools that use "an administrative panel" to "judge" these things or do they use real cops and real courts?

and to paraphrase something I read here once about the US military when discussing the same topic....I don't understand how anybody would let their daughters go to college.

(of course I don't really mean that, just making fun of the poster that said that....I have no idea who it was, but I know who he votes for )

[Simfan34]

Here is her account of what happened:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Which the panel apparently had difficulty understanding:

You must be logged in to read this quote.

http://theblueandwhite.org/2014/02/11/accessible-prompt-and-equitable/

[Person Man]

Oooo, a Republican poster creating a thread about rape.  And in which "she's lying through her teeth", too!

Do go on.  *grabs popcorn*

Clay Aiken and Richard Murdock would be proud! Well, this and the fact that we are a breath away from vindicating rape culture by letting it take over the Senate.

[Simfan34]

Oooo, a Republican poster creating a thread about rape.  And in which "she's lying through her teeth", too!

Do go on.  *grabs popcorn*

Clay Aiken and Richard Murdock would be proud! Well, this and the fact that we are a breath away from vindicating rape culture by letting it take over the Senate.

Clay Aiken? Besides that note how Joe Republic apparently wants you to think I believe "she's lying through her teeth". Had a Republican made an ad with such contextual distortion, Joe would have made a thread on it by now.

I am just pointing out the two possible solutions here are either a lynch mob to run the alleged out of town or to do nothing at all about this woman's predicament. Both are equally unpleasant.

I am just hoping the Atlas community could perhaps explain things clearly so that I might not feel so conflicted about all this. Certainly, I want to hear.

[Paul Kemp]

So I am... interested in your... opinions on this... matter.

What are you doing?

[tik 🪀✨]

This is awful. I cannot even begin to -

I am just hoping the Atlas community could perhaps explain things clearly so that I might not feel so conflicted about all this. Certainly, I want to hear.

- I don't really know you, Simfan, but that comes across as really sarcastic. I will assume that you're not sarcastic and genuinely want to hear from the "Atlas community" (as though we're all so united in opinion) and say that.. cases like these are just the worst. So terrible.

There's too little evidence to convict the guy at this point because there was no real immediate, thorough investigation. We're left with testimony that was given (apparently) months later. The fair thing to do seems to be to let the guy go. Nevertheless I desperately want this girl to feel like she will get justice in case the allegations are true. Can anyone blame her for taking so long to speak out? This is deeply personal, and embarassing, and traumatic. And, well.. if you would lie about this, you're on a similar moral level as a rapist.

But, you know, let's say that he did in fact do it and that for sh**t reasons justice will not be served. Do you then take your personal trauma and turn it into performance art? It would take an especially strong person to do so. In a weird way, even if she's lying, what's she's doing symbolically tickles my SJW bone because it's a clever way to make the baggage an assault victim carries tangible to the observer. But ideas like that serve as powerful tools when kept as ideas, too, so if you're doing this as a stunt while lying you're a massively horrible person. You could express the idea without making a scene, if you didn't need a scene.

So I can't offer any real clarity. I can say that I personally feel like, in dealing with a traumatic experience and a subsequent lack of justice, I would absolutely not turn my pain into a public display. But that's just my personality. I don't know this woman at all. I think it's all pretty seedy and impossible to feel positive about either side without more information. The only ones who can offer clarity are the parties involved.

[Bacon King]

Simfan there's definitely a middle ground here. As an outside observer here it appears patently obvious that the "Office of Gender-Based and Sexual Misconduct" needs some intense reform because at present it appears to be little more than an ineffective bureaucratic organ, perfunctorily and soullessly going through the motions of a useless school policy that was implemented just so the administration could claim they were doing something.

I mean, just read your last link- the school's rules are blatantly insufficient and their implementation is terrible. The entire situation places an intense amount of pressure on the victims starting right when they first report to the school that they were raped; that's ass-backwards because that kind of pressure, scrutiny, and judgement is exactly what keeps so many victims from reporting what happened, and why it often takes a significant amount of time to do so.

A girl reports what happened to her and the interviewer just jots the important bits down as bulletpoints on a notepad, and that truncated testimony is judged against the guy's formal and thorough submitted statement written entirely in his own words and prepared with the assistance of his attorney. The panel meets to deliberate and they see that these two documents conflict, so they obviously go with the professional statement rather than the illegible chicken scratch. They call it a day and go back to whatever their normal staff job is. This unfairness was not deemed legitimate grounds for appeal.

A girl wants justice done to the guy who wronged her, but still wants to move on with her life- she's got classes to attend, essays to write, and she can't let herself slip up by dwelling on such a horrible memory. She already told the school investigators exactly what happened to her so she's sure justice will be done and she has nothing to fear. But then the investigator gets the rapist's own statement, tells her it doesn't mesh with her story at all. The investigator needs her to come in and go through it line-by-line and tell them exactly which parts are fake and at each such point write what really happened. She sure as hell doesn't want to do that- to not only relive the trauma and recite every horrible detail once again, but to read all the way through her rapist's own twisted version of the events which doubtlessly painted her as a willing and inviting participant in what was actually a forcible and frightening violation of her most intimate areas. She can't do it- so they have to read it out to her over the phone for her responses. She spends most of the call silent, her mind filled with terrible and dark imagery evoked by hearing the monotonous recitation of her rapist's lies. She can't hear any more and ends the call. The school's bureaucrat records down in the official case file that the accusing student made no objection to the testimony of the accused. The judgement panel meets again- just another day in the office- and they see this note. This is an easy one, they think, and rule in favor of the male student since the girl apparently agreed with him after all. As they wrap up the paperwork, one staff member ponders thinks about how silly some of the students are, protesting sexual misconduct on campus when most of these incidents really just turn out to be petty couples bickering over minor misunderstandings. If only they knew what was really going on!




The above paragraphs are my retelling of events from your link, I didn't mean to make them into stories but I just kept going and lost track of what I was writing. I get very critical of anything I do that's vaguely artistic so I'd probably end up deleting it if I reread it to check for clarity so I'm not sure how well the point is made. What I'm trying to illustrate is that the entire system offers rape victims nothing but a cold and uncaring environment where they are expected to make their case with zero emotional support, with the judgement decided by staff offering just as much empathy as they would in a plagiarism hearing. Justice gets lost by the system and nobody notices except the students in the dispute.

Honestly just giving the victim a dedicated advocate to fight their case for them would do a world of good

[Cory]

Is there any evidence that this happened as she said? No?

We don't just take every word a complaining witness or alleged victim says as Gospel. That's not how it works. It sucks this is what it took for her and others to realize this. There is a due process procedure and it annoys me how people are willing to handwave it entirely as soon as a case that touches their emotions comes up.

I know some people who work in law enforcement. And the thing is they have to scrutinize these cases because, and I know this will rub people the wrong way, but these kinds of things are made up all the time. Most of the rape accusations they get eventually turn out to be fabricated out of personal spite before they even make it to court. Usually nobody is charged with anything.

I don't get this mentality that whenever someone is on trial for rape we automatically believe everything to alleged victim says and assume the accused is guilty until proven innocent.

[Person Man]

Oooo, a Republican poster creating a thread about rape.  And in which "she's lying through her teeth", too!

Do go on.  *grabs popcorn*

Clay Aiken and Richard Murdock would be proud! Well, this and the fact that we are a breath away from vindicating rape culture by letting it take over the Senate.

Clay Aiken? Besides that note how Joe Republic apparently wants you to think I believe "she's lying through her teeth". Had a Republican made an ad with such contextual distortion, Joe would have made a thread on it by now.

I am just pointing out the two possible solutions here are either a lynch mob to run the alleged out of town or to do nothing at all about this woman's predicament. Both are equally unpleasant.

I am just hoping the Atlas community could perhaps explain things clearly so that I might not feel so conflicted about all this. Certainly, I want to hear.

Sorry, was early. lol. But still. When I was renting properties in a SRO situation, I had to deal with date rape situation where no one was believed because the girl was frightened by all the rapist's friends.  When I was pledging a fraternity, we all had to deal with a senior guy who was accused of date rape but who avoided most conduct save for a sexual harassment dismissal at a place he worked.

[angus]

I guess I'm not entirely clear on the mechanics of booty sex either.  Why does the panel member think it physically impossible?  

[Person Man]

Is there any evidence that this happened as she said? No?

We don't just take every word a complaining witness or alleged victim says as Gospel. That's not how it works. It sucks this is what it took for her and others to realize this. There is a due process procedure and it annoys me how people are willing to handwave it entirely as soon as a case that touches their emotions comes up.

I know some people who work in law enforcement. And the thing is they have to scrutinize these cases because, and I know this will rub people the wrong way, but these kinds of things are made up all the time. Most of the rape accusations they get eventually turn out to be fabricated out of personal spite before they even make it to court. Usually nobody is charged with anything.

I don't get this mentality that whenever someone is on trial for rape we automatically believe everything to alleged victim says and assume the accused is guilty until proven innocent.

There is always this side of the story, too. I knew a guy who had a falling out with a family friend, and the friend went to the police and said he molested her sons and no one believed him even though there was no physical evidence of the molestation and he was sent away for 8 years.

The point is that someone could have raped dozens of women over the years and just get a stern talking to and one guy who is celibate or a virgin could be sent to prison for years for raping someone he never even laid a finger on. The problem is that we don't really know what happens much of time because many, if not most, people have unhealthy views on sexuality.  

I guess I'm not entirely clear on the mechanics of booty sex either.  Why does the panel member think it physically impossible? 

...And these are the issues of contention that take center stage..

[Cory]

There is always this side of the story, too. I knew a guy who had a falling out with a family friend, and the friend went to the police and said he molested her sons and no one believed him even though there was no physical evidence of the molestation and he was sent away for 8 years.

The point is that someone could have raped dozens of women over the years and just get a stern talking to and one guy who is celibate or a virgin could be sent to prison for years for raping someone he never even laid a finger on. The problem is that we don't really know what happens much of time because many, if not most, people have unhealthy views on sexuality.

Which is why we should err on the side of the evidence, as called for in the justice system. We shouldn't buy into this Nancy Grace hysteria bullsh**t that middle-aged women seem to love.

[Bacon King]

Read the links- the panel was flabbergasted at the fact that he entered her anally without using lube.


I'm assuming these events happened for the sake of argument because the outcomes that happened here would have occurred regardless of whether the claims were correct or not, which says a lot about the system's flaws. I also don't believe the redpiller garbage than any significant percentage of rape accusations are fake because rape is far more likely to occur but then go unreported than the other way around, and bringing it up at first instinct is just terrible victim blaming

[angus]

flabbergasted ... anally without using lube

I guess I'm still not entirely clear on that.

I only knew one girl who was really into that.  It's not my cup of tea, but I was a good sport about it.  That was a very long time ago but as I recall the mechanics were straightforward.  Or maybe straightbackward now that I think about it.  I suppose that if Sulkowics did not engage in this sort of activity on a regular basis, then the application of lubricant might have been in order, but its immediate availability would perhaps suggest some planning on the part of either Sulkowics or Nungesser.  In any case, it isn't a necessary precaution.  Just ask the thousands of incarcerated felons in US prisons.  I guess I don't find that particular aspect of the story particularly flabbergasting. 

The exploitation of one's own alleged rape, however, for the purpose of creating an assigned art project registers as somewhat flabbergastworthy.  Nevertheless, if her story is true, then I can understand her abject frustration with the system, and the extreme measures to which she resorted in order to advertise the shortcomings of the system.  And, quite frankly--although I'm not qualified as an art critic and I have no idea whether her accusations are valid--it's a brilliant concept for performance art.  I can see it earning an A+ on artistic merit alone.

[Badger]

When dealing with rape, most administrative systems and police throughout the country tend to be, not only completely and utterly useless, but actually downright nefarious. This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone who's actually paying any attention.

I more than "pay attention" to such matters, and I couldn't agree less about your assessment of police and their response to rape victims. An accurate assessment would be they aren't miracle workers regarding what is an EXTREMELY difficult crime to prosecute, generally.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I guess I'm not entirely clear on the mechanics of booty sex either.  Why does the panel member think it physically impossible?  

I admit to not having read the links, but it's possible that rather than thinking the booty sex impossible per se, ey might have thought it wasn't possible from the positions the woman reported the two of them to be in, particularly if she was saying (or ey thought she was saying) he was also doing something else to her at the same time.

As for this particular case, with multiple independent accusers, I find them more credible than the defendant.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Read the links- the panel was flabbergasted at the fact that he entered her anally without using lube.


I'm assuming these events happened for the sake of argument because the outcomes that happened here would have occurred regardless of whether the claims were correct or not, which says a lot about the system's flaws. I also don't believe the redpiller garbage than any significant percentage of rape accusations are fake because rape is far more likely to occur but then go unreported than the other way around, and bringing it up at first instinct is just terrible victim blaming

MRAs and redpillers undeniably overstate the prevalence of false rape reports (which are a legitimate problem but are far outweighed by the under-reporting of rape), but presumption of innocence is not the same as "victim-blaming". That said, regardless of what actually happened here, Columbia's system is clearly incompetent and proof that criminal matters should be handled by law enforcement.

[angus]

it wasn't possible from the positions the woman reported

As for this particular case, with multiple independent accusers, I find them more credible than the defendant.

My first thought also was that she thought it was impossible due to the positioning, but after some thought I decided that it was quite possible. 

I am also inclined to believe her story.  Still, I'm not a fan of throwing out the presumption of innocence and a fair trial by an impartial jury, and I'd add to Cory's comments that the Nancy Grace-style sensationalism isn't limited to "middle-aged women."  It's a society-wide problem.

Of course we'll never really know what actually happened on that night.

[Beet]

Regardless of what happened here, carrying around a mattress all over the place to bring attention to rape is a tremendously courageous thing. Everywhere you go, people are looking at you, wondering, and if anyone asks, you say you were raped? This kind of fearlessness is good in a way that most people can recognize, and I think this is why this story is getting so much attention.

[angus]

fearlessness is good

Fearlessness can benefit, but it can also destroy.  If a raped woman is brave enough not only to face her accuser, but also to face those who doubt the veracity of her claims, it is good.  It is good because it gives strength to the victims of similar abuse and it is good because it furthers the cause of justice. Its controlled application can help serve as a guarantor that no one must suffer a similar fate.  If, on the other hand, a self-aggrandizing attention whore is willing to besmirch the reputation of our nation's most hallowed institutions and ruin the life of a man who angered or embarrassed her at some point, either for revenge or for publicity, then the fearlessness is destructive and can cause great harm. Fearlessness in and of itself is neither good nor bad. Fearlessness among men certainly has built nations, but it has destroyed more than a few of them as well.  

[Cory]

If she named the person she is accusing, wouldn't it be defamation of character? Considering that as far as the law is concerned it "never happened"?

[MaxQue]

If she named the person she is accusing, wouldn't it be defamation of character? Considering that as far as the law is concerned it "never happened"?

It never went in front of a court, through. It went through an university "administrative panel".