Woman, mattress, rape, performance art
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Author Topic: Woman, mattress, rape, performance art  (Read 5203 times)
Mr. Morden
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« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2014, 02:37:29 AM »

If she named the person she is accusing, wouldn't it be defamation of character? Considering that as far as the law is concerned it "never happened"?

What?  That's not how "defamation of character" works.
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Cory
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« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2014, 09:44:32 AM »

If she named the person she is accusing, wouldn't it be defamation of character? Considering that as far as the law is concerned it "never happened"?

What?  That's not how "defamation of character" works.


No I mean if she went around accusing someone of something like that without formally filing charges. Because I mean c'mon this seems like a pretty clear cut case here unless she has any evidence.
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Mr. Morden
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« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2014, 10:17:49 AM »

If she named the person she is accusing, wouldn't it be defamation of character? Considering that as far as the law is concerned it "never happened"?

What?  That's not how "defamation of character" works.


No I mean if she went around accusing someone of something like that without formally filing charges. Because I mean c'mon this seems like a pretty clear cut case here unless she has any evidence.

If a man and a woman both say that they've had sex with each other, and that part is not in dispute, but she says that it was not consensual (it was rape), and he says it was consensual, then I don't think she is going to get charged with defamation of character, unless you can actually prove that she's lying.  And not sure how you're going to do that in this case.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2014, 11:12:41 AM »

I thought Cory had promised to leave the forum? See, he's such a sh!tty poster that he doesn't even keep his promises.
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Person Man
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« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2014, 12:33:45 PM »

If she named the person she is accusing, wouldn't it be defamation of character? Considering that as far as the law is concerned it "never happened"?
Maybe not. Many states won't let you bring action for slander or libel unless it caused you to lose a job or money or  a marriage, a relationship or something of that nature.
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SteveRogers
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« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2014, 01:53:21 PM »

If she named the person she is accusing, wouldn't it be defamation of character? Considering that as far as the law is concerned it "never happened"?

What?  That's not how "defamation of character" works.


No I mean if she went around accusing someone of something like that without formally filing charges. Because I mean c'mon this seems like a pretty clear cut case here unless she has any evidence.

It sounds like she did contact the police, and they have just chosen not to pursue the case. I don't thing he'd succeed in any defamation suit.
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Cory
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« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2014, 08:00:01 PM »
« Edited: September 07, 2014, 09:24:14 AM by Cory »

I thought Cory had promised to leave the forum? See, he's such a sh!tty poster that he doesn't even keep his promises.

I never promised to permanently leave the forum.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2014, 08:08:22 PM »

Don't let me stop you Smiley
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Simfan34
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« Reply #33 on: September 06, 2014, 11:54:39 PM »
« Edited: September 06, 2014, 11:57:45 PM by Governor Varavour »

UPDATE: Dean of the undergraduate college runs into Sulkowicz, awkwardness ensues.

Some more updates:

They've made listicles about it.

A website has been set up where people can sign up to help Sulkowicz carry around the mattress.

Here's a video of her explaining her project to the campus newspaper.

Interestingly enough, here is a video of none other than the alleged rapist, Jean-Paul Nungesser, explaining his project (a short film) to the campus newspaper, last year- seven months after the incident.


I don't know. I just don't- I really don't know what can be done about this. I suppose you (and Joe) are interested in my opinion about this. Then again I doubt you are.

But having seen her carry that mattress myself, as well as having the issue quite literally shoved in my face- campus is being swarmed with reporters-  it's impossible to not think about it. But you actually don't see people here talking about it, or at least I haven't.

I personally haven't talked about it with anyone sans one or two close friends who can be relied to generally be of the same mind as me. I still think there are only two real firm "positions" one can have about this, as I said before, both of which are rather terrible, so I imagine talking about this- despite the fact it has completely enveloped our university and attracted international attention- would be close to sheer horror. Which is why I wanted to bring it up here rather than just thinking about it.

But I'm not sure what to think. Bacon King (and others), raised up the issue of the shortcomings of the campus disciplinary system and sexual assault policy, which are obviously pertinent. For most of this year the university It certainly needs to be changed- which it actually has recently, and quite expansively.

The new "Gender-Based Misconduct Policy" (I am not entirely sure why it is called that), for example, states that "a person also cannot give consent under [the Gender-Based Misconduct Policy] if he or she is incapacitated by drinking, drugs, being asleep, or for any other reason," which is a rather uncompromising approach to consent (Is the drunken hook-up now non-consensual? This would seem to necessitate a rather radical configuration in social norms that I gather many of the people who call for the end of "rape culture" would not look favourably upon.).

But more relevant to the issues that Bacon King brought up is that the new policy permits advisors or attorneys to "accompany students to any meetings or hearings related to investigations."

Also fun fact: I started this post at 07:06 and finished...whenever I end up posting this. It's 11:45 right now. Wait-what the hell?! Have I been sitting here for this long?!

I'll skip over the digression about how campus activists responded to the new policy by complaining that they weren't involved in writing it and get back to Sulkowicz.

I mean, I sympathize with her. I have no reason to believe she's being dishonest about what happened to her, and so it's clear she's been through a great deal of mental anguish and distress. Indeed, my first reaction to hearing this was a rather knee-jerk distaste for her "performance art", which I generally rather dislike. I still don't consider it "art", but after hearing her explain her reasoning for carrying the mattress, I saw how it rather poignantly served as a physical embodiment of the trauma and pain she must carry with her at all times. I actually feel the mass of attention the media has given to this attests to just how strikingly it captures that feeling.

But I absolutely can't get behind what she's trying to accomplish with this- have her alleged rapist expelled. Flawed as it might have been, the disciplinary panel did not find Nungesser responsible for what he was accused of, and nor has any court done so. Emotive as her actions might be, it doesn't make him any more legally culpable than he is now. As much as I or anyone else might believe what she said happened to her did happen and that her rapist should be expelled and punished, it doesn't give us any justifiable reason to do so. In that way this whole thing comes across as an attempt to find him guilty in a court of public opinion so that he may be run off campus, the other courts having failed her. It is an act of a desperate person with no-one else to whom to turn.

Again, I don't think she's wrong to feel that way. But it almost doesn't seem that way. This is a senior art thesis, a calculated and planned project. An organised campaign. It's not something someone overwhelmed by their demons would be able to carry out. Which makes me wonder about her reasoning as to why she did not report her rape sooner. I have never been a victim of sexual assault and thus lack the ability to truly empathise with her, but she waited eight months to file a report with the disciplinary office. And then, afterwards, it was close to two whole years until she went to the police. Shame, anger, embarrassment, frustration- I can imagine it- but I'm thrown off by her ability to now stand front and center in the public square with this when she had been so hobbled by it for so long.

I don't intend to criticise her- perhaps she did suddenly feel the need to be open about what happened to her, but that night is now over two years in the past. What can be done? What if evidence, even if there was a trial, would anyone be able to produce beyond the testimonies of the two and possibly the almost certainly unreliable recollection of people in neighboring rooms? What real evidence is there beyond Sulkowicz's word? I take her for it- but that's not how laws work. I guess my frustration in the prior paragraph comes from the utter futility of further investigation or trial- there simply is no evidence at this point; had she come forth sooner, it would be different. There would be  evidence, and justice could be served.

But for me the idea of expelling a student found guilty of no crime or deemed responsible for any wrongdoing strikes me as fundamentally unjust, and I'll admit I honestly find the idea more revolting than the idea of a rapist going unpunished. I mean, is this what people- other than Sulkowicz, who unlike the rest of us presumably knows the absolute truth of the matter- want to happen? For someone to be expelled (and presumably imprisoned) without a shred of evidence? It is one thing to reject disciplinary boards and courts of law as biased and incompetent, but it is another to completely reject the idea of the rule of law and the right to a fair trial. I really don't know- is this something people believe? Is it something they want?

That is perhaps what is so distressing about this whole affair: "justice" would be unjust, but "injustice" would be just.

What do you think should be done? Because I simply don't know.
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Paul Kemp
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« Reply #34 on: September 07, 2014, 06:40:15 PM »
« Edited: September 07, 2014, 06:54:19 PM by Paul Kemp »


I don't know. I just don't- I really don't know what can be done about this. I suppose you (and Joe) are interested in my opinion about this. Then again I doubt you are.

...

I was referring to why... you were... typing... like... this...

as in the original post:

So I am... interested in your... opinions on this... matter.

...which you bizarrely edited in your own very, very long post above that I most certainly did not read.

Keep on weirding on, Simfan.
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Foucaulf
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« Reply #35 on: September 08, 2014, 12:58:22 AM »

It is pointless to separate the court of opinion from the court of law these days. Unless laws change, we mutually understand to take advantage of both.

I do think there has been some confusion on Sulkowicz's intent here - even if the name of the rapist is common knowledge, do we have proof that she decided to make the statement of her rapist on her own free will? And even if she did, which would be wrong, that does not imply her carrying this mattress around is wrong - in that she has not referenced her rapist's name while promoting this project.

My angle is that I cannot see why her doing this project is wrong, absent her restating the rapist's name again. Practically, I can see many reasons why she would be driven to do this - particularly because we live in a world where people are willing to dismiss any claim from a potential survivor as "lying". And a right idea of justice has to conform somewhat with what we are willing to do.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #36 on: September 08, 2014, 08:05:02 AM »
« Edited: September 08, 2014, 08:09:07 AM by Governor Varavour »

I agree with what most of you're saying, but the fact is there really isn't any confusion about her intent here:

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The problem has nothing to do with the guy's name, which is already out there in the police report, but rather the idea that the rule of law should be thrown out the window. Is that something you see nothing wrong with?
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Mr. Morden
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« Reply #37 on: September 08, 2014, 08:39:35 AM »

I agree with what most of you're saying, but the fact is there really isn't any confusion about her intent here:

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The problem has nothing to do with the guy's name, which is already out there in the police report, but rather the idea that the rule of law should be thrown out the window. Is that something you see nothing wrong with?

If he's guilty and she knows he's guilty, then I don't see a problem with her doing this.  That doesn't mean that we should expect the school to actually go ahead with the expulsion if the evidence isn't there.  She's welcome to do this even if the chances of it leading to punishment for the guy are slim.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #38 on: September 08, 2014, 10:52:53 AM »
« Edited: September 08, 2014, 11:00:06 AM by Governor Varavour »

Agreed- I see how this is completely logical from her perspective but in the case of anyone else I'm not sure how one could "support" her explicitly defined aim.

If I seem overly concerned about this (Kemp?) it's probably because one here is not only confronted with it, but apparently people are being "called out" for not helping her carry the mattress, and groups are being pressured by activists to get involved.

It's a shame the broader activism focusing on selection assault on campus has become so shrill and confrontational- because something needs to be done- rape is bad.

I wish her "objective" was to force a significant revision of how sexual assault is responded to on campus and that victims come forth so that their attackers can face justice- rather than the attempt to essentially run the man off campus. It would be more productive and less, well, disconcerting.

But I obviously understand why she would want justice for herself. The tragic thing is, however, that I don't see how it could be done, and certainly not through this.
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Paul Kemp
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« Reply #39 on: September 08, 2014, 10:57:26 AM »

If I seem overly concerned about this (Kemp?) it's probably because one here is not only confronted with it, but apparently people are being "called out" for not helping her carry the mattress, and groups are being pressured by activists to get involved.

I never said you were "overly concerned" but the musings/ramblings are a bit odd. Your fascination with this as well as what you call "kettle-sim" or whatever rivals that of Snowstalker's with SJWs. I'm kinda amused by it.
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Marokai Backbeat
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« Reply #40 on: September 08, 2014, 10:59:45 AM »

I think Simfan's posts here are more interesting than most if nothing else; he's at least interested in having some sort of dialogue about it.
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Simfan34
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« Reply #41 on: September 08, 2014, 11:10:27 AM »

If I seem overly concerned about this (Kemp?) it's probably because one here is not only confronted with it, but apparently people are being "called out" for not helping her carry the mattress, and groups are being pressured by activists to get involved.

I never said you were "overly concerned" but the musings/ramblings are a bit odd. Your fascination with this as well as what you call "kettle-sim" or whatever rivals that of Snowstalker's with SJWs. I'm kinda amused by it.

Well like I said, my "fascination" with this stems from the fact I've been directly confronted with it without the opportunity to actually discuss it much. I wouldn't have even bothered bringing it up here if not for the fact it has garnered a great deal of media attention already.

And I fully concede my ramblings (which is what they are) are odd- there isn't really a point I'm trying to make beyond expressing confusion and my attempts to understand things.

As for "tea-kettlism" I'd say that's best left in the IRC whence it came- where you know it's not a view that I am alone in holding, nomenclature aside.
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dead0man
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« Reply #42 on: September 08, 2014, 11:30:57 AM »

I think Simfan's posts here are more interesting than most if nothing else; he's at least interested in having some sort of dialogue about it.
Indeed.  I'm not understanding the negative reaction he's getting.
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angus
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« Reply #43 on: September 08, 2014, 11:34:10 AM »

I'm not understanding the negative reaction he's getting.

I think it's the obsession.

I chalk it up to his being a little "weirder than normal" as Grumps says. 
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dead0man
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« Reply #44 on: September 08, 2014, 11:39:21 AM »

I'm pretty sure almost all of us here are "a little weirder than normal".
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angus
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« Reply #45 on: September 08, 2014, 11:41:17 AM »

haha.  I assumed that he was saying, a littler weirder even than most forum members. 

Anyway, we all have our little obsessions.  I actually don't have a problem with any of Simfan's.  This one is at least better than the sartorial thread he was stuck on a couple of years ago.
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Small Business Owner of Any Repute
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« Reply #46 on: September 08, 2014, 01:56:44 PM »

Having to see the woman who was raped constantly remind you that she was raped is pretty uncomfortable. Still, it has to be more comfortable than being raped and not having authorities care enough to do anything about it.
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The Dowager Mod
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« Reply #47 on: September 08, 2014, 04:55:21 PM »

Having to see the woman who was raped constantly remind you that she was raped is pretty uncomfortable. Still, it has to be more comfortable than being raped and not having authorities care enough to do anything about it.
Thank You.
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Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck
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« Reply #48 on: September 08, 2014, 05:58:58 PM »

This thread needs opebo.
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Badger
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« Reply #49 on: September 09, 2014, 04:11:57 PM »

Having to see the woman who was raped constantly remind you that she was raped is pretty uncomfortable. Still, it has to be more comfortable than being raped and not having authorities care enough to do anything about it.
Thank You.
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