Job Guarantee Act of 2014 (Debating)
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Author Topic: Job Guarantee Act of 2014 (Debating)  (Read 2238 times)
TNF
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« on: September 09, 2014, 09:36:05 AM »

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Sponsor: President Pro Tempore TNF



The point of this bill is simple: to once and for all end unemployment. It creates a reserve fund that will shrink and grow as is necessary, reflecting fluctuations in the private sector labor market. It allows for the unemployed to participate directly in the formulation of policy and in the implementation of it, which will provide us with more rational project ideas (because who knows better what needs to be built or fixed in their communities than the people who live there) and will avoid the kind of corruption or cronyism that is otherwise endemic to a lot of public works spending.
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TNF
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« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2014, 10:26:35 AM »

Bumping this for the inevitable running over the coals I'm going to get for introducing it. Tongue
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2014, 06:23:14 PM »

...I've been here before
grant he's the same...


slight pull from Gods and Generals there. Tongue

The cost of this will be astronomical, and as much difficulty as I am having in my present real life quest for employment, I still cannot bring myself to ignore that the costs of this and the effects paying for such on the economy. It would be destructive and likely destroy as many jobs as it creates if not more.
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Lumine
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« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2014, 06:42:39 PM »

Indeed, could we even afford the costs that such a program will implicate? We're talking about millions of people after all, and while we do need to discuss a budget for the next year pretty soon I don't think we will be able to handle that, just as I didn't believe that we could handle a single-payer system or other related proposals when we passed the Health Care reform a couple of months ago. Furthermore, wouldn't the MJA and AJA create something logistically worse than our current problems regarding beaurocracy?

I would hope that the idea for funding this is not just keep taxing the rich over and over again until we have the funds... (as was suggested in a different bill).
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MyRescueKittehRocks
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« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2014, 09:13:09 PM »

No wonder why he wants to gut and merge the branches of our armed forces. If you would get yourself away from your friends in big union for a moment and look at the current budget for a moment. We can't afford this. This government needs to stop over regulating the business owner and put some good policies in place and this is a weapon of mass economic destruction.
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Cranberry
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« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2014, 09:58:04 AM »

I am not saying outright no before I do not know the costs of this... But they will likely be astronomic, as Yankee said... I like the programs (but the tens of thousands of agencies created, and the way they at created - you do like to write that as long as possible and as complicated as possible don't you? Tongue), given they are a bit idealistic, but this is Atlasia... But I will have to ask the questions Lumine and Yankee asked too - will we be able to fund this in any way so we do not loose any more jobs in the process?
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TNF
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« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2014, 11:00:12 AM »

...I've been here before
grant he's the same...


slight pull from Gods and Generals there. Tongue

The cost of this will be astronomical, and as much difficulty as I am having in my present real life quest for employment, I still cannot bring myself to ignore that the costs of this and the effects paying for such on the economy. It would be destructive and likely destroy as many jobs as it creates if not more.

Nice citations you have there. I would like to just remind everyone that a program like the one I am proposing has been implemented before in this country. Actually, a few programs like it. The Civilian Conservation Corps, the Public Works Administration, the Works Progress Administration, and, oh yeah, the mass hiring of the out of work by the United States armed forces during World War II. Full employment and price stability are both possible, and both are totally affordable, we just have to be willing to use the ability to tax and print money to finance it.

Indeed, could we even afford the costs that such a program will implicate? We're talking about millions of people after all, and while we do need to discuss a budget for the next year pretty soon I don't think we will be able to handle that, just as I didn't believe that we could handle a single-payer system or other related proposals when we passed the Health Care reform a couple of months ago. Furthermore, wouldn't the MJA and AJA create something logistically worse than our current problems regarding beaurocracy?

I would hope that the idea for funding this is not just keep taxing the rich over and over again until we have the funds... (as was suggested in a different bill).

The alternative to taxing the rich is printing money. You choose, but I would definitely prefer the former.

The funding that goes toward giving the unemployed work, and the wages paid to those workers, will put money in their pockets that will allow them to spend that money and create more jobs in the private sector. Because of the way that this bill works, the actual number of workers employed by the Jobs Authority would shrink overtime in conjunction with the growth of private sector payrolls. It is basic countercyclical Keynesianism, not Marxism.
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Dr. Cynic
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« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2014, 03:07:44 PM »

When I was legislating in the Northeast, rather than create the programs outright, at least originally, we offered incentives for additional employment before we'd go through the regional government. Would this be a possibility to save money along the way rather than just create government agencies at the cost?
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #8 on: September 11, 2014, 08:53:24 PM »

We did a lot to give employers incentives to hire during my presidency, along with setting up a program to increase the availability of capital to small businesses and new businesses (cash for startups), so I doubt we can do anymore in the area.

Just stopping by to say hi, carry on, gentlemen... Tongue
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2014, 08:55:32 PM »

I much prefer incentivising private employment over creating public projects at an astronomical cost.
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TNF
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« Reply #10 on: September 12, 2014, 04:24:30 PM »

Private employers have shown that they won't hire the unemployed. If they would, this wouldn't be necessary. We will either hire the unemployed or we will allow millions of people to starve. That's the choice here.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #11 on: September 12, 2014, 06:13:03 PM »

...I've been here before
grant he's the same...


slight pull from Gods and Generals there. Tongue

The cost of this will be astronomical, and as much difficulty as I am having in my present real life quest for employment, I still cannot bring myself to ignore that the costs of this and the effects paying for such on the economy. It would be destructive and likely destroy as many jobs as it creates if not more.

Nice citations you have there. I would like to just remind everyone that a program like the one I am proposing has been implemented before in this country. Actually, a few programs like it. The Civilian Conservation Corps, the Public Works Administration, the Works Progress Administration, and, oh yeah, the mass hiring of the out of work by the United States armed forces during World War II. Full employment and price stability are both possible, and both are totally affordable, we just have to be willing to use the ability to tax and print money to finance it.

The threshold before adverse consequences for such is lower in non-World War II environments. No patriotic drive to buy war bonds to defeat Hitler.
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2014, 02:07:33 AM »

Private employers have shown that they won't hire the unemployed. If they would, this wouldn't be necessary. We will either hire the unemployed or we will allow millions of people to starve. That's the choice here.

I disagree that's the choice.

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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2014, 04:10:30 PM »

Employers want to make money and if they only way they can is to expand and hire more people they will do so. Our goal should be to make policies that will encourage expansion, and aggressive inflationary practices and the high interest rates created by excessive borrowing would hinder such expansion and create a self-fulfilling policy, moving hiring from the private investment to the gov't spending and leave us with likely a net loss of jobs, not gain.
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TNF
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« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2014, 04:19:44 PM »

Private employers have shown that they won't hire the unemployed. If they would, this wouldn't be necessary. We will either hire the unemployed or we will allow millions of people to starve. That's the choice here.

I disagree that's the choice.



You're wrong, but that essentially stems from the fallacy here that there has to be unemployment in order to maintain a functioning labor market. Perhaps that is true in a capitalist labor market, but guaranteed employment for all who wish to work would be a step in a direction away from a labor market in which workers are just another commodity to be bought and sold.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2014, 04:46:54 PM »

Private employers have shown that they won't hire the unemployed. If they would, this wouldn't be necessary. We will either hire the unemployed or we will allow millions of people to starve. That's the choice here.

I disagree that's the choice.



You're wrong, but that essentially stems from the fallacy here that there has to be unemployment in order to maintain a functioning labor market. Perhaps that is true in a capitalist labor market, but guaranteed employment for all who wish to work would be a step in a direction away from a labor market in which workers are just another commodity to be bought and sold.

So mass unionization has failed?
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Deus Naturae
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« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2014, 09:47:38 PM »

My response to you in this thread seems appropriate here.
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2014, 02:06:56 AM »

Let's step back from the talking points and grand-standing.

Let us look at first principles here.

1. What is the intention of this Bill?
2. Can it be realistically achieved? ie not resulting in massive and never-ending expenditure
3. Is this a program in perpetuity or to address a short or medium-term concern?
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TNF
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« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2014, 08:59:57 PM »

1. To eradicate unemployment

2. Yes, it has been in the past and can be done again. The funds here shrink and grow with private sector unemployment, so costs will fluctuate according to the state of the private sector labor market. How hard is that to understand? It's in plain English in the text of the bill.

3. See 2
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2014, 09:02:47 PM »

1. To eradicate unemployment

2. Yes, it has been in the past and can be done again. The funds here shrink and grow with private sector unemployment, so costs will fluctuate according to the state of the private sector labor market. How hard is that to understand? It's in plain English in the text of the bill.

3. See 2

That's not necessary - considering the imposts proposed by this Bill, we need to be forensic in discussing its impacts, positive and negative.
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TNF
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« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2014, 09:12:02 PM »

It is necessary, given that I've reiterated it in post after post and we still have people asking how we can afford a program that shrinks if the private sector employment indicators are doing well.
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2014, 09:47:06 PM »

It is necessary, given that I've reiterated it in post after post and we still have people asking how we can afford a program that shrinks if the private sector employment indicators are doing well.

But we don't have any idea how much this costs at all... and it's highly irresponsible to take on something without that idea.

We'll see beyond that, but I cannot entertain this Bill without what I think is a reasonable metric for discussion.
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Adam Griffin
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« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2014, 02:59:15 AM »

It is necessary, given that I've reiterated it in post after post and we still have people asking how we can afford a program that shrinks if the private sector employment indicators are doing well.

But we don't have any idea how much this costs at all...

Ask the SoIA. Or based on the recent trajectory of cost analysis, we could each just make up a figure and they'd all be accurate.
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TNF
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« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2014, 10:32:26 AM »

I don't see how the funding of this program is a problem. If we want to eliminate unemployment, it's going to cost money. We all know that. We can pay for this program via the amount of growth it will ultimately cause by putting otherwise unproductive labor to good use doing things that desperately need to get done.
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DemPGH
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« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2014, 12:09:44 PM »

Well, we're talking about setting up a program for the unemployed wherein the aim is to reduce unemployment to 3% or lower and stabilize it there by finding them jobs. I think that's reasonable. The money made from this can be turned back around, I'm guessing. At least, why not?

I also want some idea of the cost, but if you're going to say, "Well, we're a capitalist system," then I think it's a good idea to open it up to the people who have been left out. I think minimally we could set up something to hire those able bodied who are desperately in pursuit of work.

Another possibility would be to train the unemployed to become entrepreneurs, but that seems harder to me because not everyone is a businessperson.
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