Air Force to atheist Sgt.: "Recite 'So help me god' or get out"
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  Air Force to atheist Sgt.: "Recite 'So help me god' or get out"
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Author Topic: Air Force to atheist Sgt.: "Recite 'So help me god' or get out"  (Read 2049 times)
Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck
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« on: September 10, 2014, 01:39:23 PM »

http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2014/09/us_air_force_tells_sergeant_to_recite_so_help_me_god_or_leave_the_military.html

I hope this poor guy doesn't receive any blacklash after any court that knows anything about Const. Law declares what the Air Force is doing is unconstitutional.  

The comments on Facebook are as vicious towards this guy and atheists in general as you would expect.
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NewYorkExpress
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« Reply #1 on: September 10, 2014, 02:48:27 PM »

My advice to this person... Get out and the Air Force and its neuroses behind, it's not like humanity was meant to drop bombs on each other.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2014, 03:18:03 PM »

Existing precedent concerning the "under God" portion of the pledge of allegiance would seem to indicate that it's all right for Congress to include "so help me God" in the (re)enlistment oath, so long as it is voluntary for the oath taker to say it.
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NerdyBohemian
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« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2014, 03:54:49 PM »

Support the troops!*






*unless they're: atheist, gay, brown, female or need healthcare after their service.
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bedstuy
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« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2014, 04:05:40 PM »

He seriously can't just say the oath and leave out the God bit?  What is the Air Force worried about?  If he leaves out the God part will the ghost of Jesus come back and shoot down his plane?
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All Along The Watchtower
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« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2014, 04:10:29 PM »

What's with the insecurity? The way some American Christians act, you'd think that they are in demographic decline and losing political influence...oh wait.
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Cassius
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« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2014, 04:47:19 PM »

Why doesn't he simply cross his fingers (metaphorically). I mean, he's an atheist, so its not as if he's upsetting another God by swearing on this particular God (and even then, I'm sure 'other Gods' would take finger crossings as good too). In fact, the only people whom he's upsetting (who have the power to hurt him) are his superiors, who appear to want him to recite the 'so help me God' oath. This all begs the question; why not sign? If God is a nonsense, then it does not matter one way or t'other him reciting this oath, as, if God does not exist, that part of the oath is meaningless anyway. So why not just save himself a load of hassle and recite the bloody oath!? Unless, of course, he's angling for a support fund to be set up for him...
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« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2014, 06:37:22 PM »

Well, he wants to be authentic in his oath, and true to his beliefs, and not call upon the help of someone he doesn't believe exists, so I can't fault hm that.

Congress apparently used to include an exemption for people not to have to take this part of the oath, but then took it out when they renewed the law that it is a part of. Maybe some fundie cut it when no one was looking.  The Air Force should follow the Constitution over the plain meaning of the statute, but they are not completely to blame here.
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dead0man
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« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2014, 08:11:16 PM »

The institutional culture of the Air Force is awful - and the worst of any branch of the US armed services by far.
No it's not.

As somebody that's been working in or for the USAF since 1994 I've NEVER seen anybody take sh**t for holding non-Christian views (and I've seen a lot of people, myself included, holding those views).  I guess 20 years of living something is nothing compared to reading/skimming 3 articles on the topic in the last 4 years.

As for the OP, of course this is wrong and hopefully this situation will fix it.
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Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck
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« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2014, 08:57:01 PM »

Why doesn't he simply cross his fingers (metaphorically). I mean, he's an atheist, so its not as if he's upsetting another God by swearing on this particular God (and even then, I'm sure 'other Gods' would take finger crossings as good too). In fact, the only people whom he's upsetting (who have the power to hurt him) are his superiors, who appear to want him to recite the 'so help me God' oath. This all begs the question; why not sign? If God is a nonsense, then it does not matter one way or t'other him reciting this oath, as, if God does not exist, that part of the oath is meaningless anyway. So why not just save himself a load of hassle and recite the bloody oath!? Unless, of course, he's angling for a support fund to be set up for him...

Yea, we atheists don't care or believe in anything beyond ourselves, anyway.  What's the harm? 
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DemPGH
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« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2014, 09:14:14 PM »

Yeah, even the ultra conservative Supreme Court is, as far as I know, always on the side of this kind of thing being optional. I have no idea whatsoever what is gained by inserting religion into public oaths, or worse, forcing someone to acknowledge a certain deity.

I know of a couple young folks who went to different branches of the military, and they all actually told me how diverse the belief systems were of the recruits - there were nature religion types, old fashioned gospel, atheists, and so on. No one cared a bit so long as you could pull your weight.

It's unfortunately social pressure coming from someone who found a way to remove the optional language. You'll run into a lot of religion and especially superstition in sports culture, but you would never be told you HAVE to do it in my experience.
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ingemann
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« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2014, 10:31:22 PM »

I have it hard with these things, on one hand the his superiors are clearly wrong and should all go on a early retirement, when they focus on this kind of crap, on the other hand this sgt. represent all what's wrong with many people today; the drama, the focus on being a unique flower and the complete lack of flexibility in just saying the damn words and not making a big deal about the wording.
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dead0man
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« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2014, 11:55:56 PM »

A military angled MB I lurk at (very pro-military, GO USA USA kind of place) is very pissed off about this.
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Likely Voter
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« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2014, 12:09:25 AM »

would it count if he said "so help me Flying Spaghetti Monster"
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2014, 08:53:14 AM »

A military angled MB I lurk at (very pro-military, GO USA USA kind of place) is very pissed off about this.

In the way I'd hope they'd be POed (pro-American) or the way I expect they'd be POed (pro-intolerance)?
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ingemann
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« Reply #15 on: September 11, 2014, 09:53:20 AM »

It's so sad, no one recognise me as the unique flower I am, I have to hear people mention God, oh it's so sad for me.

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afleitch
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« Reply #16 on: September 11, 2014, 10:27:14 AM »

It's so sad, no one recognise me as the unique flower I am, I have to hear people mention God, oh it's so sad for me.



I'm sure he doesn't mind other people saying the god scented oath, he just wants to take the oath honestly.
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dead0man
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« Reply #17 on: September 11, 2014, 10:49:04 AM »

A military angled MB I lurk at (very pro-military, GO USA USA kind of place) is very pissed off about this.

In the way I'd hope they'd be POed (pro-American) or the way I expect they'd be POed (pro-intolerance)?
The good way.  They think it's a load of horse sh**t/people shouldn't have to swear to a god (much less a specific "God") to swear allegiance to their country.
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dead0man
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« Reply #18 on: September 11, 2014, 11:00:14 AM »

The institutional culture of the Air Force is awful - and the worst of any branch of the US armed services by far.
No it's not.

As somebody that's been working in or for the USAF since 1994 I've NEVER seen anybody take sh**t for holding non-Christian views (and I've seen a lot of people, myself included, holding those views).  I guess 20 years of living something is nothing compared to reading/skimming 3 articles on the topic in the last 4 years.

As for the OP, of course this is wrong and hopefully this situation will fix it.

Admittedly I've read more about officers (especially at the AFA) then I have about enlisted personnel, and the servicemen whom I've talked to are either in other branches or have been out of the Air Force since the '90s, but why should I take the word of some guy with a bad attitude and baseless assumptions about my reading habits over all of that?
You can take the word of whomever the funk you want to just as I can counter your anecdotes with my own anecdotes.  You can think (incorrectly) that the USAF is full of churchy folk preaching God and holding back anybody that thinks otherwise if you want.  There certainly are problems with the "institutional culture" of the USAF (we can do a thread on it if you want...the disregard of the nuclear force, too much in bed with certain contractors, typical govt overspending, an aging fleet of birds...more), but Christians running amok is pretty far down the list and it's certainly not "the worst of any branch of the US armed services by far".
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politicus
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« Reply #19 on: September 11, 2014, 02:52:57 PM »

it's certainly not "the worst of any branch of the US armed services by far".

Out of curiosity, which one would that be in your opinion?
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Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck
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« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2014, 07:16:39 PM »

it's certainly not "the worst of any branch of the US armed services by far".

Out of curiosity, which one would that be in your opinion?

Probably the Army and their "spiritual fitness test".

http://www.npr.org/2011/01/13/132904866/armys-spiritual-fitness-test-angers-some-soldiers

http://www.spiritfit.army.mil/
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dead0man
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« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2014, 07:32:20 PM »

it's certainly not "the worst of any branch of the US armed services by far".

Out of curiosity, which one would that be in your opinion?
As far as too much religion goes?  It might be the AF (the shenanigans at the Academy were very embarrassing), but it's not "by far".
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pendragon
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« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2014, 08:52:24 PM »

If you're an atheist (as am I), saying "so help me God" isn't really any different than saying "hocus-pocus, if I am false let bad juju fall on my head."

I mean, it's just words. If you're treating religious references like they have mystical power... haven't you gone full circle back to being religious again?
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dead0man
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« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2014, 09:08:44 PM »

It's a huge disaster.  Should have used different air frames for the different services requirements.  Trying to get one air frame to do 3 totally different things to save money was an idiotic thing to do.
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« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2014, 08:19:35 AM »

If you're an atheist (as am I), saying "so help me God" isn't really any different than saying "hocus-pocus, if I am false let bad juju fall on my head."

I mean, it's just words. If you're treating religious references like they have mystical power... haven't you gone full circle back to being religious again?

But why should this man be forced to acknowledge a god he doesn't believe in? And why should the United States government be forcing that on him?
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