Opinion of 9/11 Jokes

[bedstuy]

Well, looking back this morning I think I offer several of you a sincere apology.  It's not hard to say you're sorry, but here goes:

I'm sorry your friends and family members died because of decades of US Imperialism around the globe that killed millions of men, women and children that helped bring about the kind of cultural resentment that made 9/11 possible.  Again I'm very sorry that Uncle Sam killed your friends.

Yikes.  That sounds like you're both blaming America for 9/11 and implicating the innocent people who died on 9/11 in "imperialism" so they're somehow to blame as Americans.  I understand that probably sounds ridiculous to most people, but it's also the kind of boilerplate leftist anti-American gibberish you actually hear from people.

I think that would touch nerve with most people more than what you said before even.  Maybe I'm just missing the joke.

He's certainly not doing the latter, but are you going to completely reject the notion that imperialism has consequences?

That's a bit tricky.  The US has influenced every single country in the world and done lots of terrible things, sure.  But, when it comes to 9/11, the US was the innocent victim and was in no way at fault.  The US didn't cause 9/11.  Just because you committed some bad action in the past, doesn't mean that you caused bad things to happen to yourself in the future.  That's basically the idea that two wrongs make a right.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Well, looking back this morning I think I offer several of you a sincere apology.  It's not hard to say you're sorry, but here goes:

I'm sorry your friends and family members died because of decades of US Imperialism around the globe that killed millions of men, women and children that helped bring about the kind of cultural resentment that made 9/11 possible.  Again I'm very sorry that Uncle Sam killed your friends.

Yikes.  That sounds like you're both blaming America for 9/11 and implicating the innocent people who died on 9/11 in "imperialism" so they're somehow to blame as Americans.  I understand that probably sounds ridiculous to most people, but it's also the kind of boilerplate leftist anti-American gibberish you actually hear from people.

I think that would touch nerve with most people more than what you said before even.  Maybe I'm just missing the joke.

He's certainly not doing the latter, but are you going to completely reject the notion that imperialism has consequences?

That's a bit tricky.  The US has influenced every single country in the world and done lots of terrible things, sure.  But, when it comes to 9/11, the US was the innocent victim and was in no way at fault.  The US didn't cause 9/11.  Just because you committed some bad action in the past, doesn't mean that you caused bad things to happen to yourself in the future.  That's basically the idea that two wrongs make a right.

Why do you think Al-Qaeda picked the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and the Capitol/White House to attack? Also what makes 9/11 worse than military attacks-sanctioned by governments-on civilian populations? How many innocent people died in the firebombings of Tokyo and other cities in Japan (to say nothing of our country having the distinction of being the only one ever to use nuclear weapons on not one, but TWO cities).

Nobody is denying that 9/11 was a horrific atrocity. But I don't see why we-the people of the United States-shouldn't at least question the long history of the United States government (as well as transnational corporations, which the US dominates) doing horrible things, ostensibly in our name. Or how the United States' economic, military, political, cultural, and ideological power have all worked against the interests of other countries and cultures-again, all in the name of American ideals. Yes, we do a lot of good things as well, but again, what is "good" by American standards is assumed to be good for the rest of the world.

Now, you could just chalk this all up to the US acting in its own interests as the world's superpower.
But there's also the unfortunate reality that we do not live up to our own ideals, which is true in international relations as well as in our domestic politics. Thus, we get accused of hypocrisy and sanctimoniousness-and there's definitely a significant deal of truth to that accusation.

All of this is to say; even though the US dominates the world, our perceptions of the world (and ourselves) are by no means universal. That is something we have to collectively understand. People outside the US both love us and hate us-the natural consequence of being the sole superpower.  

Hope that made sense.  

[bedstuy]

Why do you think Al-Qaeda picked the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and the Capitol/White House to attack?

Symbolism, maximizing casualties, I don't really see why it matters all that much.

Also what makes 9/11 worse than military attacks-sanctioned by governments-on civilian populations? How many innocent people died in the firebombings of Tokyo and other cities in Japan (to say nothing of our country having the distinction of being the only one ever to use nuclear weapons on not one, but TWO cities).

Terrorism vs. a legal and necessary war against one of the most despicable empires in modern history.  It's a world of difference.  But, did Al Qaeda care about Japanese civilians?  No, they killed innocent quite a few Japanese civilians on 9/11 for crying out loud.  And, what's the logic there.  You can slaughter the innocent civilians of any country that has ever done anything wrong or any country that has fought a war?  That's just ridiculous.

Nobody is denying that 9/11 was a horrific atrocity. But I don't see why we-the people of the United States-shouldn't at least question the long history of the United States government (as well as transnational corporations, which the US dominates) doing horrible things, ostensibly in our name. Or how the United States' economic, military, political, cultural, and ideological power have all worked against the interests of other countries and cultures-again, all in the name of American ideals. Yes, we do a lot of good things as well, but again, what is "good" by American standards is assumed to be good for the rest of the world.

Who said don't question the US?  I didn't.  You are portraying the US and Al Qaeda conflict in a ridiculous way honestly.  Is Al Qaeda some group of leftists who were inspired by Howard Zinn to repay America for its misdeeds?  Not by a long shot.   

Now, you could just chalk this all up to the US acting in its own interests as the world's superpower.
But there's also the unfortunate reality that we do not live up to our own ideals, which is true in international relations as well as in our domestic politics. Thus, we get accused of hypocrisy and sanctimoniousness-and there's definitely a significant deal of truth to that accusation.

All of this is to say; even though the US dominates the world, our perceptions of the world (and ourselves) are by no means universal. That is something we have to collectively understand. People outside the US both love us and hate us-the natural consequence of being the sole superpower.  

Hope that made sense.  

Here's the problem, there's nothing we can do that would make Al Qaeda and their fellow travelers happy with us.  We're a cosmopolitan, secular, pluralist democracy and that's antithetical to the Al Qaeda Islamist ideology.  If we were the nicest country ever, they'd still have a beef with us.  If this was an attack led by Howard Zinn, sure, you might be somewhat correct.  But, this was an attack by Islamist terrorist group with Islamist terrorist aims.  Sometimes they'll accuse us of hypocrisy and use words like imperialism and such.  But, they're ultimately not looking to us and demanding that we adhere to human rights.  Al Qaeda was pursuing their religious and political goals, which we should all find abhorrent.  This wasn't an act of God punishing America for what we've done wrong.  This was an act of war by a group on another group.  Unless you want to argue that Al Qaeda had some good political points, I think your whole premise is nonsense.

[Mechaman]

And yeah if you can't figure it out I'm one of those bastards who voted positive.  Why you may ask?  Well because it's been 13 years and the effects of the hypernationalism created by an event that would've never happened because of hypernationalism in the first place is still felt to this day.  We grieve and mourn for 3,000 people who died in a terrorist bombing 13 years ago yet there is not one day of rememberance for the millions we killed in westward expansion, there is not one day in rememberance of the millions who have died in Asia as a direct and indirect result of American imperialism, and we seriously think that we can make up everything we did to black people by giving them a month out of the year to "celebrate their heritage".

So yes, it was tragic for maybe for up to a year after it happened, afterwards it's just become a rallying day for rahrahrahrahrah rahrahrahrahrah rahrahrahrahrahrahrahrahrah Americanism.  In my mind there is no concept that deserves to be mocked more in this country.

Besides, I saw better special effects in the "Moon Landing" video and the Benghazi one at least had guns.  9/11?  More like "call 911 cause a crime has been committed!"  amiriteguise?

Very Brave!  So Much Edginess!  

Seriously dude, get over yourself.  The True Left spiel in your post did about as much for the victims of slavery and imperialism as liking some random Facebook post does to end world hunger.  If you really want to help then become a community activist, join the peace corps, adopt a young child from an orphanage and raise him/her well and provide the child with opportunities he/she never had, etc.  If you can't do anything like that, carve spend like eight hours a week helping at soup kitchens or something.  My point is don't post self-rightious rants on some internet forum; if you really care, do something that will actually have a meaningful impact.  Otherwise, you're just a True Leftist version of a hashtag activist patting himself on the back for wearing a "Save Darfur" bracelet or liking a one sentence Facebook post that says "Like this post if you think using child soldiers is bad."  But whatever, the important thing is that True Lefts can tell themselves they're morally superior to everyone else, right?

Don't get me wrong Mecha, you're generally a pretty good (albeit occasionally a little out there) poster, but that was a pretty disgusting post you made on multiple levels.

This may shock you, but perhaps you're right.  Perhaps posting on this forum isn't the best thing for my mental and physical health.

As for why I don't do those things, well I got to make ends meet.  In this country you kind of have to have a job where you can afford food and sh*t.  If I don't have the money, how am I going to help the poor and the oppressed ?  I do give money to charities and participate in local non-profit organizations in the area that tackle problems like sexual slavery and starving children in Africa (though more as a part time member), so I'm much more than just a hashtag activist like you say.
Though I do concede it is a bit self-righteous grandstanding.  In my defense though, I'm one of the few posters on here who will admit he's full of sh*t when the time calls for it.  I guess that is what makes me so amicable.

My main point is that actions do have consequences, whether you (or a few other people on here) want to admit it or not.  It's unfortunate and I feel like we as a nation still haven't learned that.  Should we have sung "Kumbaya" with the people who bombed the World Trade Center?  Probably not.  However, it would be best if we could use the eleventh going forward to perhaps learn from our enemies, learn exactly why they hate us beyond tv talking points, and what real solutions besides create massive military budget deficits policing half the globe can be used to bring peace to the world.  Maybe I should've been more reasonable at first, but it was early and when I saw Carl's post I was in a pretty vindictive mood.

Otherwise, we aren't much better than the British were in the 19th century, who used very similar rationale to justify their empire.

[patrick1]

As bedstuy noted though, there are some enemies were there really is no room to learn from or negotiate with. I see no room to play peacemaker with a group like ISIS. We should learn the conditions that cause such groups to emerge and try to mitigate the root cause, but many are true believers in their worldview that is simply incompatible with ours.

As for 9/11 jokes, I suppose it all depends on what it is about and the angle. Laughing at people dying on something that hits close to home is something Im not into. However, laughter and comedy is a gift that can heal. It helps people cope and survive. A whole chapter of history need not be completley off limits.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

ISIS and other Islamist radical groups did not spring out of thin air but out of the failure of Arab nationalism (which in turn sprung out of Turkish/British/French imperialism and later Israeli settler-colonialism).

[Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck]

One must venture deep into the realm of the offensive if you want to happen upon true comedic gold.  And as comedic gold is necessary in our sad little world...

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

And yeah if you can't figure it out I'm one of those bastards who voted positive.  Why you may ask?  Well because it's been 13 years and the effects of the hypernationalism created by an event that would've never happened because of hypernationalism in the first place is still felt to this day.  We grieve and mourn for 3,000 people who died in a terrorist bombing 13 years ago yet there is not one day of rememberance for the millions we killed in westward expansion, there is not one day in rememberance of the millions who have died in Asia as a direct and indirect result of American imperialism, and we seriously think that we can make up everything we did to black people by giving them a month out of the year to "celebrate their heritage".

So yes, it was tragic for maybe for up to a year after it happened, afterwards it's just become a rallying day for rahrahrahrahrah rahrahrahrahrah rahrahrahrahrahrahrahrahrah Americanism.  In my mind there is no concept that deserves to be mocked more in this country.

Besides, I saw better special effects in the "Moon Landing" video and the Benghazi one at least had guns.  9/11?  More like "call 911 cause a crime has been committed!"  amiriteguise?

Very Brave!  So Much Edginess!  

Seriously dude, get over yourself.  The True Left spiel in your post did about as much for the victims of slavery and imperialism as liking some random Facebook post does to end world hunger.  If you really want to help then become a community activist, join the peace corps, adopt a young child from an orphanage and raise him/her well and provide the child with opportunities he/she never had, etc.  If you can't do anything like that, carve spend like eight hours a week helping at soup kitchens or something.  My point is don't post self-rightious rants on some internet forum; if you really care, do something that will actually have a meaningful impact.  Otherwise, you're just a True Leftist version of a hashtag activist patting himself on the back for wearing a "Save Darfur" bracelet or liking a one sentence Facebook post that says "Like this post if you think using child soldiers is bad."  But whatever, the important thing is that True Lefts can tell themselves they're morally superior to everyone else, right?

Don't get me wrong Mecha, you're generally a pretty good (albeit occasionally a little out there) poster, but that was a pretty disgusting post you made on multiple levels.

This may shock you, but perhaps you're right.  Perhaps posting on this forum isn't the best thing for my mental and physical health.

As for why I don't do those things, well I got to make ends meet.  In this country you kind of have to have a job where you can afford food and sh*t.  If I don't have the money, how am I going to help the poor and the oppressed ?  I do give money to charities and participate in local non-profit organizations in the area that tackle problems like sexual slavery and starving children in Africa (though more as a part time member), so I'm much more than just a hashtag activist like you say.
Though I do concede it is a bit self-righteous grandstanding.  In my defense though, I'm one of the few posters on here who will admit he's full of sh*t when the time calls for it.  I guess that is what makes me so amicable.

My main point is that actions do have consequences, whether you (or a few other people on here) want to admit it or not.  It's unfortunate and I feel like we as a nation still haven't learned that.  Should we have sung "Kumbaya" with the people who bombed the World Trade Center?  Probably not.  However, it would be best if we could use the eleventh going forward to perhaps learn from our enemies, learn exactly why they hate us beyond tv talking points, and what real solutions besides create massive military budget deficits policing half the globe can be used to bring peace to the world.  Maybe I should've been more reasonable at first, but it was early and when I saw Carl's post I was in a pretty vindictive mood.

Otherwise, we aren't much better than the British were in the 19th century, who used very similar rationale to justify their empire.

Except Al-Qaeda doesn't hate us because of imperialism or human rights or anything like that.  They believe that anyone who doesn't share their religious and ideological worldview must be destroyed, no ifs, ands, or buts.  It is a fundamental postulate of their worldview, as is the idea that they are doing God's work and that God will reward them with paradise when they die.  I know this is a slight oversimplification (ex: they were angry about us having troops in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War, IIRC), but only in semantic ways.  Given that Al-Qaeda truly believes what I just described, they cannot be bought, reasoned, or negotiated with any more than ISIS or Nazi true believers (ex: Joseph Goebbels, Alfred Rosenberg, Julius Stricher, etc).  

I "understand" what their so-called reasons for attacking us are in the context of their worldview, but it does change the fact that I have literally no sympathy for them whatsoever.  I still see Al-Qaeda as enemies and the type of enemies that simply need to be destroyed or incapacitated to the point that they are incapable of functioning in any remotely significant capacity.  Are there things we can and should be doing like not letting private contractors like Blackwater kill civilians with impunity, never torture people, work to minimize civilian casualties in drone strikes when possible, and not doing stupid things like invading Iraq and arming every Syrian group we can find that isn't directly affiliated with Assad or ISIS?  Absolutely.  That said, our failure to conduct certain aspects of this war as we should doesn't excuse anything Al-Qaeda is doing!  

I should also add that this isn't some leftist group fighting for the rights of an oppressed minority or to liberate a colony (not that their tactics would be justified were that the case).

[tik 🪀✨]

Whenever I hear a 9/11 joke, I want to jump out of a window.

[Mechaman]

And yeah if you can't figure it out I'm one of those bastards who voted positive.  Why you may ask?  Well because it's been 13 years and the effects of the hypernationalism created by an event that would've never happened because of hypernationalism in the first place is still felt to this day.  We grieve and mourn for 3,000 people who died in a terrorist bombing 13 years ago yet there is not one day of rememberance for the millions we killed in westward expansion, there is not one day in rememberance of the millions who have died in Asia as a direct and indirect result of American imperialism, and we seriously think that we can make up everything we did to black people by giving them a month out of the year to "celebrate their heritage".

So yes, it was tragic for maybe for up to a year after it happened, afterwards it's just become a rallying day for rahrahrahrahrah rahrahrahrahrah rahrahrahrahrahrahrahrahrah Americanism.  In my mind there is no concept that deserves to be mocked more in this country.

Besides, I saw better special effects in the "Moon Landing" video and the Benghazi one at least had guns.  9/11?  More like "call 911 cause a crime has been committed!"  amiriteguise?

Very Brave!  So Much Edginess!  

Seriously dude, get over yourself.  The True Left spiel in your post did about as much for the victims of slavery and imperialism as liking some random Facebook post does to end world hunger.  If you really want to help then become a community activist, join the peace corps, adopt a young child from an orphanage and raise him/her well and provide the child with opportunities he/she never had, etc.  If you can't do anything like that, carve spend like eight hours a week helping at soup kitchens or something.  My point is don't post self-rightious rants on some internet forum; if you really care, do something that will actually have a meaningful impact.  Otherwise, you're just a True Leftist version of a hashtag activist patting himself on the back for wearing a "Save Darfur" bracelet or liking a one sentence Facebook post that says "Like this post if you think using child soldiers is bad."  But whatever, the important thing is that True Lefts can tell themselves they're morally superior to everyone else, right?

Don't get me wrong Mecha, you're generally a pretty good (albeit occasionally a little out there) poster, but that was a pretty disgusting post you made on multiple levels.

This may shock you, but perhaps you're right.  Perhaps posting on this forum isn't the best thing for my mental and physical health.

As for why I don't do those things, well I got to make ends meet.  In this country you kind of have to have a job where you can afford food and sh*t.  If I don't have the money, how am I going to help the poor and the oppressed ?  I do give money to charities and participate in local non-profit organizations in the area that tackle problems like sexual slavery and starving children in Africa (though more as a part time member), so I'm much more than just a hashtag activist like you say.
Though I do concede it is a bit self-righteous grandstanding.  In my defense though, I'm one of the few posters on here who will admit he's full of sh*t when the time calls for it.  I guess that is what makes me so amicable.

My main point is that actions do have consequences, whether you (or a few other people on here) want to admit it or not.  It's unfortunate and I feel like we as a nation still haven't learned that.  Should we have sung "Kumbaya" with the people who bombed the World Trade Center?  Probably not.  However, it would be best if we could use the eleventh going forward to perhaps learn from our enemies, learn exactly why they hate us beyond tv talking points, and what real solutions besides create massive military budget deficits policing half the globe can be used to bring peace to the world.  Maybe I should've been more reasonable at first, but it was early and when I saw Carl's post I was in a pretty vindictive mood.

Otherwise, we aren't much better than the British were in the 19th century, who used very similar rationale to justify their empire.

Except Al-Qaeda doesn't hate us because of imperialism or human rights or anything like that.  They believe that anyone who doesn't share their religious and ideological worldview must be destroyed, no ifs, ands, or buts.  It is a fundamental postulate of their worldview, as is the idea that they are doing God's work and that God will reward them with paradise when they die.  I know this is a slight oversimplification (ex: they were angry about us having troops in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War, IIRC), but only in semantic ways.  Given that Al-Qaeda truly believes what I just described, they cannot be bought, reasoned, or negotiated with any more than ISIS or Nazi true believers (ex: Joseph Goebbels, Alfred Rosenberg, Julius Stricher, etc).  

I "understand" what their so-called reasons for attacking us are in the context of their worldview, but it does change the fact that I have literally no sympathy for them whatsoever.  I still see Al-Qaeda as enemies and the type of enemies that simply need to be destroyed or incapacitated to the point that they are incapable of functioning in any remotely significant capacity.  Are there things we can and should be doing like not letting private contractors like Blackwater kill civilians with impunity, never torture people, work to minimize civilian casualties in drone strikes when possible, and not doing stupid things like invading Iraq and arming every Syrian group we can find that isn't directly affiliated with Assad or ISIS?  Absolutely.  That said, our failure to conduct certain aspects of this war as we should doesn't excuse anything Al-Qaeda is doing!  

I should also add that this isn't some leftist group fighting for the rights of an oppressed minority or to liberate a colony (not that their tactics would be justified were that the case).

Again way to strawman the actual point.

I'm not arguing that Al Qaeda are heroes, I'm arguing that US actions in the Middle East and other areas can be linked to the rise of said groups and inevitably why they (as PRs post demonstrates) they chose to attack NYC in that particular day instead of say bomb another Jewish discotheque in Tel Aviv.  Even if you believe in pragmatic foreign policy it isn't that hard to see that there would be blowback from playing policeman in the way we did during Reagan and Clinton.

To be fair ISIS is pretty horrible and more Bushs fault than Obama's.

If you insist on continuing to grossly misinterpret our points, consider this debate finished.

[bedstuy]

Again way to strawman the actual point.

I'm not arguing that Al Qaeda are heroes, I'm arguing that US actions in the Middle East and other areas can be linked to the rise of said groups and inevitably why they (as PRs post demonstrates) they chose to attack NYC in that particular day instead of say bomb another Jewish discotheque in Tel Aviv.  Even if you believe in pragmatic foreign policy it isn't that hard to see that there would be blowback from playing policeman in the way we did during Reagan and Clinton.

To be fair ISIS is pretty horrible and more Bushs fault than Obama's.

If you insist on continuing to grossly misinterpret our points, consider this debate finished.

You can link 9/11 to a court case in the 1960s that allowed the Port Authority to condemn a bunch of shops in the Financial District.  You can link 9/11 to British imperialism as well.  You can link 9/11 to the failure of airport security.  The mere linkage in a sequence of events doesn't necessarily matter to allocating blame or fault.

But, look at it this way, imagine you're allocating the fault pro-rata.  You don't say, well, the US is 40% at fault because they got involved in international politics and Al Qaeda was thus compelled to attack New York City and DC.  That is like saying, the reason that someone shot you and stole your hubcaps was that you parked your car in a bad neighborhood. 

[Free Bird]

And yeah if you can't figure it out I'm one of those bastards who voted positive.  Why you may ask?  Well because it's been 13 years and the effects of the hypernationalism created by an event that would've never happened because of hypernationalism in the first place is still felt to this day.  We grieve and mourn for 3,000 people who died in a terrorist bombing 13 years ago yet there is not one day of rememberance for the millions we killed in westward expansion, there is not one day in rememberance of the millions who have died in Asia as a direct and indirect result of American imperialism, and we seriously think that we can make up everything we did to black people by giving them a month out of the year to "celebrate their heritage".

So yes, it was tragic for maybe for up to a year after it happened, afterwards it's just become a rallying day for rahrahrahrahrah rahrahrahrahrah rahrahrahrahrahrahrahrahrah Americanism.  In my mind there is no concept that deserves to be mocked more in this country.

Besides, I saw better special effects in the "Moon Landing" video and the Benghazi one at least had guns.  9/11?  More like "call 911 cause a crime has been committed!"  amiriteguise?

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Again way to strawman the actual point.

I'm not arguing that Al Qaeda are heroes, I'm arguing that US actions in the Middle East and other areas can be linked to the rise of said groups and inevitably why they (as PRs post demonstrates) they chose to attack NYC in that particular day instead of say bomb another Jewish discotheque in Tel Aviv.  Even if you believe in pragmatic foreign policy it isn't that hard to see that there would be blowback from playing policeman in the way we did during Reagan and Clinton.

To be fair ISIS is pretty horrible and more Bushs fault than Obama's.

If you insist on continuing to grossly misinterpret our points, consider this debate finished.

You can link 9/11 to a court case in the 1960s that allowed the Port Authority to condemn a bunch of shops in the Financial District.  You can link 9/11 to British imperialism as well.  You can link 9/11 to the failure of airport security.  The mere linkage in a sequence of events doesn't necessarily matter to allocating blame or fault.

But, look at it this way, imagine you're allocating the fault pro-rata.  You don't say, well, the US is 40% at fault because they got involved in international politics and Al Qaeda was thus compelled to attack New York City and DC.  That is like saying, the reason that someone shot you and stole your hubcaps was that you parked your car in a bad neighborhood. 

This

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

And yeah if you can't figure it out I'm one of those bastards who voted positive.  Why you may ask?  Well because it's been 13 years and the effects of the hypernationalism created by an event that would've never happened because of hypernationalism in the first place is still felt to this day.  We grieve and mourn for 3,000 people who died in a terrorist bombing 13 years ago yet there is not one day of rememberance for the millions we killed in westward expansion, there is not one day in rememberance of the millions who have died in Asia as a direct and indirect result of American imperialism, and we seriously think that we can make up everything we did to black people by giving them a month out of the year to "celebrate their heritage".

So yes, it was tragic for maybe for up to a year after it happened, afterwards it's just become a rallying day for rahrahrahrahrah rahrahrahrahrah rahrahrahrahrahrahrahrahrah Americanism.  In my mind there is no concept that deserves to be mocked more in this country.

Besides, I saw better special effects in the "Moon Landing" video and the Benghazi one at least had guns.  9/11?  More like "call 911 cause a crime has been committed!"  amiriteguise?

Very Brave!  So Much Edginess!  

Seriously dude, get over yourself.  The True Left spiel in your post did about as much for the victims of slavery and imperialism as liking some random Facebook post does to end world hunger.  If you really want to help then become a community activist, join the peace corps, adopt a young child from an orphanage and raise him/her well and provide the child with opportunities he/she never had, etc.  If you can't do anything like that, carve spend like eight hours a week helping at soup kitchens or something.  My point is don't post self-rightious rants on some internet forum; if you really care, do something that will actually have a meaningful impact.  Otherwise, you're just a True Leftist version of a hashtag activist patting himself on the back for wearing a "Save Darfur" bracelet or liking a one sentence Facebook post that says "Like this post if you think using child soldiers is bad."  But whatever, the important thing is that True Lefts can tell themselves they're morally superior to everyone else, right?

Don't get me wrong Mecha, you're generally a pretty good (albeit occasionally a little out there) poster, but that was a pretty disgusting post you made on multiple levels.

This may shock you, but perhaps you're right.  Perhaps posting on this forum isn't the best thing for my mental and physical health.

As for why I don't do those things, well I got to make ends meet.  In this country you kind of have to have a job where you can afford food and sh*t.  If I don't have the money, how am I going to help the poor and the oppressed ?  I do give money to charities and participate in local non-profit organizations in the area that tackle problems like sexual slavery and starving children in Africa (though more as a part time member), so I'm much more than just a hashtag activist like you say.
Though I do concede it is a bit self-righteous grandstanding.  In my defense though, I'm one of the few posters on here who will admit he's full of sh*t when the time calls for it.  I guess that is what makes me so amicable.

My main point is that actions do have consequences, whether you (or a few other people on here) want to admit it or not.  It's unfortunate and I feel like we as a nation still haven't learned that.  Should we have sung "Kumbaya" with the people who bombed the World Trade Center?  Probably not.  However, it would be best if we could use the eleventh going forward to perhaps learn from our enemies, learn exactly why they hate us beyond tv talking points, and what real solutions besides create massive military budget deficits policing half the globe can be used to bring peace to the world.  Maybe I should've been more reasonable at first, but it was early and when I saw Carl's post I was in a pretty vindictive mood.

Otherwise, we aren't much better than the British were in the 19th century, who used very similar rationale to justify their empire.

Except Al-Qaeda doesn't hate us because of imperialism or human rights or anything like that.  They believe that anyone who doesn't share their religious and ideological worldview must be destroyed, no ifs, ands, or buts.  It is a fundamental postulate of their worldview, as is the idea that they are doing God's work and that God will reward them with paradise when they die.  I know this is a slight oversimplification (ex: they were angry about us having troops in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War, IIRC), but only in semantic ways.  Given that Al-Qaeda truly believes what I just described, they cannot be bought, reasoned, or negotiated with any more than ISIS or Nazi true believers (ex: Joseph Goebbels, Alfred Rosenberg, Julius Stricher, etc).  

I "understand" what their so-called reasons for attacking us are in the context of their worldview, but it does change the fact that I have literally no sympathy for them whatsoever.  I still see Al-Qaeda as enemies and the type of enemies that simply need to be destroyed or incapacitated to the point that they are incapable of functioning in any remotely significant capacity.  Are there things we can and should be doing like not letting private contractors like Blackwater kill civilians with impunity, never torture people, work to minimize civilian casualties in drone strikes when possible, and not doing stupid things like invading Iraq and arming every Syrian group we can find that isn't directly affiliated with Assad or ISIS?  Absolutely.  That said, our failure to conduct certain aspects of this war as we should doesn't excuse anything Al-Qaeda is doing!  

I should also add that this isn't some leftist group fighting for the rights of an oppressed minority or to liberate a colony (not that their tactics would be justified were that the case).

Again way to strawman the actual point.

I'm not arguing that Al Qaeda are heroes, I'm arguing that US actions in the Middle East and other areas can be linked to the rise of said groups and inevitably why they (as PRs post demonstrates) they chose to attack NYC in that particular day instead of say bomb another Jewish discotheque in Tel Aviv.  Even if you believe in pragmatic foreign policy it isn't that hard to see that there would be blowback from playing policeman in the way we did during Reagan and Clinton.

To be fair ISIS is pretty horrible and more Bushs fault than Obama's.

If you insist on continuing to grossly misinterpret our points, consider this debate finished.

BTW, I don't think that I really straw-manned you at all.  However, if you're argument is that certain U.S. policies contributed to the rise of groups like Al-Qaeda and ISIS (as opposed to literally creating them or being in any way directly responsible for the group's actions) then there is a very real and legitimate discussion to be had there.  For example, the long-term results of aiding the Muhjahideen in their fight against Soviet forces in Afghanistan is a great example of the dangers of arming random groups based on "enemy of my enemy" logic (and I worry arming groups willy-nilly in Syria could backfire in a semi-similar way a decade or two).  However, if that was more or less what you meant (and correct me if you meant something else), then it would've been better to just say something like that rather than making posts like this:

Well, looking back this morning I think I offer several of you a sincere apology.  It's not hard to say you're sorry, but here goes:

I'm sorry your friends and family members died because of decades of US Imperialism around the globe that killed millions of men, women and children that helped bring about the kind of cultural resentment that made 9/11 possible.  Again I'm very sorry that Uncle Sam killed your friends.

 

In fairness, you admitted some of it was just deliberate hyperbole/grandstanding, but when you do that (especially on Atlas where it isn't always clear what is meant to be taken seriously) it is problematic and counter-productive for three reasons.  First, it can be extremely offensive to people who think you're dead serious to the point that they miss any point you were trying to make.  Second, it may not be self-evident to folks like myself who are genuinely interested in having a real discussion/debate what parts of the post reflect your beliefs and which are just deliberately OTT hyperbole.  Lastly, it makes it easier for people who don't want your views to be a part of any debate on the issue in question to dismiss/portray you as just some nutjob.  Hopefully that makes some sense. 

[Clarko95 📚💰📈]

As for why I don't do those things, well I got to make ends meet.  In this country you kind of have to have a job where you can afford food and sh*t.  If I don't have the money, how am I going to help the poor and the oppressed ?  I do give money to charities and participate in local non-profit organizations in the area that tackle problems like sexual slavery and starving children in Africa (though more as a part time member), so I'm much more than just a hashtag activist like you say.

There are more ways to help the poor and oppressed than just donating money. That's good and all, but you can also go to an actual charity and volunteer your time and physical labor doing what needs to be done. The charity I work for is doing just fine in terms of monetary donations; it's the warehouse overflowing with donations that needs volunteers to help to make the store and charity viable. Just Google charities in your area or ask around for one that needs help, and check out their finances to make sure they're legit.

[Paul Kemp]

This thread is worse than 9/11.

[Citizen (The) Doctor]

I'd just like to add to the discussion that 41 years ago, also on 9/11, Pinochet took Chile with some US backing. And we all know how that turned out.

[All Along The Watchtower]

This thread is worse than 9/11.

But not Hitler?

[Oswald Acted Alone, You Kook]

This thread is worse than 9/11.

You're only  saying that because I'm the OP.

[Hatman 🍁]

An essential part of my "The Aristocrats" routine

[Mechaman]

As for why I don't do those things, well I got to make ends meet.  In this country you kind of have to have a job where you can afford food and sh*t.  If I don't have the money, how am I going to help the poor and the oppressed ?  I do give money to charities and participate in local non-profit organizations in the area that tackle problems like sexual slavery and starving children in Africa (though more as a part time member), so I'm much more than just a hashtag activist like you say.

There are more ways to help the poor and oppressed than just donating money. That's good and all, but you can also go to an actual charity and volunteer your time and physical labor doing what needs to be done. The charity I work for is doing just fine in terms of monetary donations; it's the warehouse overflowing with donations that needs volunteers to help to make the store and charity viable. Just Google charities in your area or ask around for one that needs help, and check out their finances to make sure they're legit.

I as more addressing X post which seemed to imply that because I wasn't workin full time to combat poverty Im a hypocrite.  In that very post you linked I said I worked with organization that combats sexual slavery.  My bigger point was more to address what I saw as a strawman used by some people to chastise liberals who make money while making anti poverty statements.

And mostly that point being in this country not everyone can go full time activist when you have to survive in order to do so. (yet another anti-capitalist point)

[Clarko95 📚💰📈]

As for why I don't do those things, well I got to make ends meet.  In this country you kind of have to have a job where you can afford food and sh*t.  If I don't have the money, how am I going to help the poor and the oppressed ?  I do give money to charities and participate in local non-profit organizations in the area that tackle problems like sexual slavery and starving children in Africa (though more as a part time member), so I'm much more than just a hashtag activist like you say.

There are more ways to help the poor and oppressed than just donating money. That's good and all, but you can also go to an actual charity and volunteer your time and physical labor doing what needs to be done. The charity I work for is doing just fine in terms of monetary donations; it's the warehouse overflowing with donations that needs volunteers to help to make the store and charity viable. Just Google charities in your area or ask around for one that needs help, and check out their finances to make sure they're legit.

I as more addressing X post which seemed to imply that because I wasn't workin full time to combat poverty Im a hypocrite.  In that very post you linked I said I worked with organization that combats sexual slavery.  My bigger point was more to address what I saw as a strawman used by some people to chastise liberals who make money while making anti poverty statements.

And mostly that point being in this country not everyone can go full time activist when you have to survive in order to do so. (yet another anti-capitalist point)

Ah, I missed the word "participate". My bad. Continue on, brave crusader.

[badgate]

So far the only good one is Joe Biden's line about Rudy Giuliani. But it's funny because it's really about Giuliani.