Opinion of 9/11 Jokes

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

And yeah if you can't figure it out I'm one of those bastards who voted positive.  Why you may ask?  Well because it's been 13 years and the effects of the hypernationalism created by an event that would've never happened because of hypernationalism in the first place is still felt to this day.  We grieve and mourn for 3,000 people who died in a terrorist bombing 13 years ago yet there is not one day of rememberance for the millions we killed in westward expansion, there is not one day in rememberance of the millions who have died in Asia as a direct and indirect result of American imperialism, and we seriously think that we can make up everything we did to black people by giving them a month out of the year to "celebrate their heritage".

So yes, it was tragic for maybe for up to a year after it happened, afterwards it's just become a rallying day for rahrahrahrahrah rahrahrahrahrah rahrahrahrahrahrahrahrahrah Americanism.  In my mind there is no concept that deserves to be mocked more in this country.

Besides, I saw better special effects in the "Moon Landing" video and the Benghazi one at least had guns.  9/11?  More like "call 911 cause a crime has been committed!"  amiriteguise?

Very Brave!  So Much Edginess!  

Seriously dude, get over yourself.  The True Left spiel in your post did about as much for the victims of slavery and imperialism as liking some random Facebook post does to end world hunger.  If you really want to help then become a community activist, join the peace corps, adopt a young child from an orphanage and raise him/her well and provide the child with opportunities he/she never had, etc.  If you can't do anything like that, carve spend like eight hours a week helping at soup kitchens or something.  My point is don't post self-rightious rants on some internet forum; if you really care, do something that will actually have a meaningful impact.  Otherwise, you're just a True Leftist version of a hashtag activist patting himself on the back for wearing a "Save Darfur" bracelet or liking a one sentence Facebook post that says "Like this post if you think using child soldiers is bad."  But whatever, the important thing is that True Lefts can tell themselves they're morally superior to everyone else, right?

Don't get me wrong Mecha, you're generally a pretty good (albeit occasionally a little out there) poster, but that was a pretty disgusting post you made on multiple levels.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

And yeah if you can't figure it out I'm one of those bastards who voted positive.  Why you may ask?  Well because it's been 13 years and the effects of the hypernationalism created by an event that would've never happened because of hypernationalism in the first place is still felt to this day.  We grieve and mourn for 3,000 people who died in a terrorist bombing 13 years ago yet there is not one day of rememberance for the millions we killed in westward expansion, there is not one day in rememberance of the millions who have died in Asia as a direct and indirect result of American imperialism, and we seriously think that we can make up everything we did to black people by giving them a month out of the year to "celebrate their heritage".

So yes, it was tragic for maybe for up to a year after it happened, afterwards it's just become a rallying day for rahrahrahrahrah rahrahrahrahrah rahrahrahrahrahrahrahrahrah Americanism.  In my mind there is no concept that deserves to be mocked more in this country.

Besides, I saw better special effects in the "Moon Landing" video and the Benghazi one at least had guns.  9/11?  More like "call 911 cause a crime has been committed!"  amiriteguise?

Very Brave!  So Much Edginess!  

Seriously dude, get over yourself.  The True Left spiel in your post did about as much for the victims of slavery and imperialism as liking some random Facebook post does to end world hunger.  If you really want to help then become a community activist, join the peace corps, adopt a young child from an orphanage and raise him/her well and provide the child with opportunities he/she never had, etc.  If you can't do anything like that, carve spend like eight hours a week helping at soup kitchens or something.  My point is don't post self-rightious rants on some internet forum; if you really care, do something that will actually have a meaningful impact.  Otherwise, you're just a True Leftist version of a hashtag activist patting himself on the back for wearing a "Save Darfur" bracelet or liking a one sentence Facebook post that says "Like this post if you think using child soldiers is bad."  But whatever, the important thing is that True Lefts can tell themselves they're morally superior to everyone else, right?

Don't get me wrong Mecha, you're generally a pretty good (albeit occasionally a little out there) poster, but that was a pretty disgusting post you made on multiple levels.

This may shock you, but perhaps you're right.  Perhaps posting on this forum isn't the best thing for my mental and physical health.

As for why I don't do those things, well I got to make ends meet.  In this country you kind of have to have a job where you can afford food and sh*t.  If I don't have the money, how am I going to help the poor and the oppressed ?  I do give money to charities and participate in local non-profit organizations in the area that tackle problems like sexual slavery and starving children in Africa (though more as a part time member), so I'm much more than just a hashtag activist like you say.
Though I do concede it is a bit self-righteous grandstanding.  In my defense though, I'm one of the few posters on here who will admit he's full of sh*t when the time calls for it.  I guess that is what makes me so amicable.

My main point is that actions do have consequences, whether you (or a few other people on here) want to admit it or not.  It's unfortunate and I feel like we as a nation still haven't learned that.  Should we have sung "Kumbaya" with the people who bombed the World Trade Center?  Probably not.  However, it would be best if we could use the eleventh going forward to perhaps learn from our enemies, learn exactly why they hate us beyond tv talking points, and what real solutions besides create massive military budget deficits policing half the globe can be used to bring peace to the world.  Maybe I should've been more reasonable at first, but it was early and when I saw Carl's post I was in a pretty vindictive mood.

Otherwise, we aren't much better than the British were in the 19th century, who used very similar rationale to justify their empire.

Except Al-Qaeda doesn't hate us because of imperialism or human rights or anything like that.  They believe that anyone who doesn't share their religious and ideological worldview must be destroyed, no ifs, ands, or buts.  It is a fundamental postulate of their worldview, as is the idea that they are doing God's work and that God will reward them with paradise when they die.  I know this is a slight oversimplification (ex: they were angry about us having troops in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War, IIRC), but only in semantic ways.  Given that Al-Qaeda truly believes what I just described, they cannot be bought, reasoned, or negotiated with any more than ISIS or Nazi true believers (ex: Joseph Goebbels, Alfred Rosenberg, Julius Stricher, etc).  

I "understand" what their so-called reasons for attacking us are in the context of their worldview, but it does change the fact that I have literally no sympathy for them whatsoever.  I still see Al-Qaeda as enemies and the type of enemies that simply need to be destroyed or incapacitated to the point that they are incapable of functioning in any remotely significant capacity.  Are there things we can and should be doing like not letting private contractors like Blackwater kill civilians with impunity, never torture people, work to minimize civilian casualties in drone strikes when possible, and not doing stupid things like invading Iraq and arming every Syrian group we can find that isn't directly affiliated with Assad or ISIS?  Absolutely.  That said, our failure to conduct certain aspects of this war as we should doesn't excuse anything Al-Qaeda is doing!  

I should also add that this isn't some leftist group fighting for the rights of an oppressed minority or to liberate a colony (not that their tactics would be justified were that the case).

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Again way to strawman the actual point.

I'm not arguing that Al Qaeda are heroes, I'm arguing that US actions in the Middle East and other areas can be linked to the rise of said groups and inevitably why they (as PRs post demonstrates) they chose to attack NYC in that particular day instead of say bomb another Jewish discotheque in Tel Aviv.  Even if you believe in pragmatic foreign policy it isn't that hard to see that there would be blowback from playing policeman in the way we did during Reagan and Clinton.

To be fair ISIS is pretty horrible and more Bushs fault than Obama's.

If you insist on continuing to grossly misinterpret our points, consider this debate finished.

You can link 9/11 to a court case in the 1960s that allowed the Port Authority to condemn a bunch of shops in the Financial District.  You can link 9/11 to British imperialism as well.  You can link 9/11 to the failure of airport security.  The mere linkage in a sequence of events doesn't necessarily matter to allocating blame or fault.

But, look at it this way, imagine you're allocating the fault pro-rata.  You don't say, well, the US is 40% at fault because they got involved in international politics and Al Qaeda was thus compelled to attack New York City and DC.  That is like saying, the reason that someone shot you and stole your hubcaps was that you parked your car in a bad neighborhood. 

This

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

And yeah if you can't figure it out I'm one of those bastards who voted positive.  Why you may ask?  Well because it's been 13 years and the effects of the hypernationalism created by an event that would've never happened because of hypernationalism in the first place is still felt to this day.  We grieve and mourn for 3,000 people who died in a terrorist bombing 13 years ago yet there is not one day of rememberance for the millions we killed in westward expansion, there is not one day in rememberance of the millions who have died in Asia as a direct and indirect result of American imperialism, and we seriously think that we can make up everything we did to black people by giving them a month out of the year to "celebrate their heritage".

So yes, it was tragic for maybe for up to a year after it happened, afterwards it's just become a rallying day for rahrahrahrahrah rahrahrahrahrah rahrahrahrahrahrahrahrahrah Americanism.  In my mind there is no concept that deserves to be mocked more in this country.

Besides, I saw better special effects in the "Moon Landing" video and the Benghazi one at least had guns.  9/11?  More like "call 911 cause a crime has been committed!"  amiriteguise?

Very Brave!  So Much Edginess!  

Seriously dude, get over yourself.  The True Left spiel in your post did about as much for the victims of slavery and imperialism as liking some random Facebook post does to end world hunger.  If you really want to help then become a community activist, join the peace corps, adopt a young child from an orphanage and raise him/her well and provide the child with opportunities he/she never had, etc.  If you can't do anything like that, carve spend like eight hours a week helping at soup kitchens or something.  My point is don't post self-rightious rants on some internet forum; if you really care, do something that will actually have a meaningful impact.  Otherwise, you're just a True Leftist version of a hashtag activist patting himself on the back for wearing a "Save Darfur" bracelet or liking a one sentence Facebook post that says "Like this post if you think using child soldiers is bad."  But whatever, the important thing is that True Lefts can tell themselves they're morally superior to everyone else, right?

Don't get me wrong Mecha, you're generally a pretty good (albeit occasionally a little out there) poster, but that was a pretty disgusting post you made on multiple levels.

This may shock you, but perhaps you're right.  Perhaps posting on this forum isn't the best thing for my mental and physical health.

As for why I don't do those things, well I got to make ends meet.  In this country you kind of have to have a job where you can afford food and sh*t.  If I don't have the money, how am I going to help the poor and the oppressed ?  I do give money to charities and participate in local non-profit organizations in the area that tackle problems like sexual slavery and starving children in Africa (though more as a part time member), so I'm much more than just a hashtag activist like you say.
Though I do concede it is a bit self-righteous grandstanding.  In my defense though, I'm one of the few posters on here who will admit he's full of sh*t when the time calls for it.  I guess that is what makes me so amicable.

My main point is that actions do have consequences, whether you (or a few other people on here) want to admit it or not.  It's unfortunate and I feel like we as a nation still haven't learned that.  Should we have sung "Kumbaya" with the people who bombed the World Trade Center?  Probably not.  However, it would be best if we could use the eleventh going forward to perhaps learn from our enemies, learn exactly why they hate us beyond tv talking points, and what real solutions besides create massive military budget deficits policing half the globe can be used to bring peace to the world.  Maybe I should've been more reasonable at first, but it was early and when I saw Carl's post I was in a pretty vindictive mood.

Otherwise, we aren't much better than the British were in the 19th century, who used very similar rationale to justify their empire.

Except Al-Qaeda doesn't hate us because of imperialism or human rights or anything like that.  They believe that anyone who doesn't share their religious and ideological worldview must be destroyed, no ifs, ands, or buts.  It is a fundamental postulate of their worldview, as is the idea that they are doing God's work and that God will reward them with paradise when they die.  I know this is a slight oversimplification (ex: they were angry about us having troops in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War, IIRC), but only in semantic ways.  Given that Al-Qaeda truly believes what I just described, they cannot be bought, reasoned, or negotiated with any more than ISIS or Nazi true believers (ex: Joseph Goebbels, Alfred Rosenberg, Julius Stricher, etc).  

I "understand" what their so-called reasons for attacking us are in the context of their worldview, but it does change the fact that I have literally no sympathy for them whatsoever.  I still see Al-Qaeda as enemies and the type of enemies that simply need to be destroyed or incapacitated to the point that they are incapable of functioning in any remotely significant capacity.  Are there things we can and should be doing like not letting private contractors like Blackwater kill civilians with impunity, never torture people, work to minimize civilian casualties in drone strikes when possible, and not doing stupid things like invading Iraq and arming every Syrian group we can find that isn't directly affiliated with Assad or ISIS?  Absolutely.  That said, our failure to conduct certain aspects of this war as we should doesn't excuse anything Al-Qaeda is doing!  

I should also add that this isn't some leftist group fighting for the rights of an oppressed minority or to liberate a colony (not that their tactics would be justified were that the case).

Again way to strawman the actual point.

I'm not arguing that Al Qaeda are heroes, I'm arguing that US actions in the Middle East and other areas can be linked to the rise of said groups and inevitably why they (as PRs post demonstrates) they chose to attack NYC in that particular day instead of say bomb another Jewish discotheque in Tel Aviv.  Even if you believe in pragmatic foreign policy it isn't that hard to see that there would be blowback from playing policeman in the way we did during Reagan and Clinton.

To be fair ISIS is pretty horrible and more Bushs fault than Obama's.

If you insist on continuing to grossly misinterpret our points, consider this debate finished.

BTW, I don't think that I really straw-manned you at all.  However, if you're argument is that certain U.S. policies contributed to the rise of groups like Al-Qaeda and ISIS (as opposed to literally creating them or being in any way directly responsible for the group's actions) then there is a very real and legitimate discussion to be had there.  For example, the long-term results of aiding the Muhjahideen in their fight against Soviet forces in Afghanistan is a great example of the dangers of arming random groups based on "enemy of my enemy" logic (and I worry arming groups willy-nilly in Syria could backfire in a semi-similar way a decade or two).  However, if that was more or less what you meant (and correct me if you meant something else), then it would've been better to just say something like that rather than making posts like this:

Well, looking back this morning I think I offer several of you a sincere apology.  It's not hard to say you're sorry, but here goes:

I'm sorry your friends and family members died because of decades of US Imperialism around the globe that killed millions of men, women and children that helped bring about the kind of cultural resentment that made 9/11 possible.  Again I'm very sorry that Uncle Sam killed your friends.

 

In fairness, you admitted some of it was just deliberate hyperbole/grandstanding, but when you do that (especially on Atlas where it isn't always clear what is meant to be taken seriously) it is problematic and counter-productive for three reasons.  First, it can be extremely offensive to people who think you're dead serious to the point that they miss any point you were trying to make.  Second, it may not be self-evident to folks like myself who are genuinely interested in having a real discussion/debate what parts of the post reflect your beliefs and which are just deliberately OTT hyperbole.  Lastly, it makes it easier for people who don't want your views to be a part of any debate on the issue in question to dismiss/portray you as just some nutjob.  Hopefully that makes some sense.