Scottish independence - The Official Atlas Forum mock referendum
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 29, 2024, 06:20:29 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  Forum Community
  Forum Community (Moderators: The Dowager Mod, YE, KoopaDaQuick 🇵🇸)
  Scottish independence - The Official Atlas Forum mock referendum
« previous next »
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6
Poll
Question: Should Scotland be an independent country?
#1
Yes
 
#2
No
 
Show Pie Chart
Partisan results

Total Voters: 148

Author Topic: Scottish independence - The Official Atlas Forum mock referendum  (Read 6302 times)
Atlas Has Shrugged
ChairmanSanchez
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 38,096
United States


Political Matrix
E: 5.29, S: -5.04


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #50 on: September 14, 2014, 12:35:43 AM »

In Jacks defense, I speculated that Ulster Unionists might have been behind the Boston bombings in the first hours after the attacks. Of course, seeing as two Chechens were the culprits, my suggestion wasn't that crazy.

You mistyped "lizard people."
I didn't actually believe that, I just threw the suggestion out after my uncle commented how it reminded him of the Troubles. So yeah, lay off of Jack and rip into me instead.
Logged
Lief 🗽
Lief
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 44,876


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #51 on: September 14, 2014, 12:36:48 AM »

no of course not

and if they do vote yes, then the queen should raise the peasant levies and send prince charles north with a grand army to quash the would-be rebels
Logged
Frodo
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 24,511
United States


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #52 on: September 14, 2014, 12:41:35 AM »

I am torn about this -on the one hand I support self-determination.  On the other hand, I do not want to see the United Kingdom (our main ally and, to wax sentimental, our mother country) any weaker than it already is. 
Logged
Snowstalker Mk. II
Snowstalker
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 20,414
Palestinian Territory, Occupied


Political Matrix
E: -7.10, S: -4.35

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #53 on: September 14, 2014, 12:49:09 AM »

I am torn about this -on the one hand I support self-determination.  On the other hand, I do not want to see the United Kingdom (our main ally and, to wax sentimental, our mother country) any weaker than it already is. 

Breaking up the cancerous Empire is bad now?
Logged
Foucaulf
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,050
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #54 on: September 14, 2014, 12:52:46 AM »

If the Scots vote for independence, they should be free to do so. But policy-wise the Yes campaign is weak on arguments:

- A currency union with the pound sterling, one of the most highly traded currencies in the world, will require stringent fiscal and monetary convergence. If the BoE had its way the Scottish Treasury will be spending even less.
- Scotland is still a highly homogeneous society, with nearly 9/10th of the population being white. Imagine them to go into an uproar once the government is targeting other groups. (s/o to Al for suggesting this)
- Typical warning about North Sea oil drying up soon. Not only that, but Scottish-incorporated companies will want to move more of its operations to countries with less macroeconomic volatility in the short run. The modern Scottish economy, driven on oil and finance, will hit a blow.
- all of this compounds to higher interest rates for Scottish business and the government, which will keep any kind of deficit spending more difficult.

Does that mean there aren't reasons for voting Yes? Of course not - but it explains why economists err toward No while Yes is favoured by artists and writers. Let's not kid ourselves that, when Scotland has to cut to satisfy creditors, it will do so on the demographic with the least political power - youth. I'd be getting out of the country before that happens.
Logged
Fmr President & Senator Polnut
polnut
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 19,489
Australia


Political Matrix
E: -2.71, S: -5.22

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #55 on: September 14, 2014, 01:35:39 AM »

I am torn about this -on the one hand I support self-determination.  On the other hand, I do not want to see the United Kingdom (our main ally and, to wax sentimental, our mother country) any weaker than it already is. 

Breaking up the cancerous Empire is bad now?

Oh do be quiet.
Logged
politicus
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 10,174
Denmark


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #56 on: September 14, 2014, 02:52:37 AM »


- Scotland is still a highly homogeneous society, with nearly 9/10th of the population being white. Imagine them to go into an uproar once the government is targeting other groups. (s/o to Al for suggesting this)


This idea seems far fetched. Why should we imagine such a thing in a country where integration works relatively smoothly? A recent poll showed 94% of minorities consider themselves Scottish, that's a pretty high number.

Why should the government even specifically "target" other groups  and not just threat them equally?

In the 2011 census only 4% of the population came from non-White ethnic minorities, so I don't know how you get to 10%+. There aren't that many adopted children in Scotland Wink
Logged
Mechaman
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 13,791
Jamaica
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #57 on: September 14, 2014, 07:25:52 AM »

You guys do realize that the economic arguments you are using for why Scotland should not leave the UK are similar to points made by anti-Free Staters in the 1920s as to why the Irish Free State would be a failure, right?
Logged
Antonio the Sixth
Antonio V
Atlas Institution
*****
Posts: 57,964
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.87, S: -3.83

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #58 on: September 14, 2014, 07:26:24 AM »

Yes (normal)
Logged
Fmr President & Senator Polnut
polnut
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 19,489
Australia


Political Matrix
E: -2.71, S: -5.22

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #59 on: September 14, 2014, 07:43:52 AM »

It's an overwhelming 'meh'

I think too many don't understand what this 'Independence' actually is, and think this is about imperialism or Monarchy or some other strained buzz-word. When in fact they're the elements that aren't going anywhere.

I'm not Scottish, I don't have a vote, but frankly, if I were Scottish, considering how badly the Yes campaign has addressed some very basic concerns, and just dismissed them as scaremongering... when some of them are actually scary... I'd vote No.

But in the end - it's the Scottish people's decision and they have to live with the consequences, for good and ill for whatever they choose.
Logged
RR1997
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,997
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #60 on: September 14, 2014, 09:12:18 AM »

Yes
Logged
they don't love you like i love you
BRTD
Atlas Prophet
*****
Posts: 112,714
Ukraine


Political Matrix
E: -6.50, S: -6.67

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #61 on: September 14, 2014, 09:41:02 AM »

Actually reading more about the potential economic consequences of this...I'm convinced this is REALLY a bad idea, and not something to just oppose on anti-nationalist principles. An independent Scotland could very well end up like Spain or Italy now (not likely to be as bad as Greece of course, but heading in that general direction.)
Logged
Snowstalker Mk. II
Snowstalker
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 20,414
Palestinian Territory, Occupied


Political Matrix
E: -7.10, S: -4.35

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #62 on: September 14, 2014, 09:42:42 AM »

Actually reading more about the potential economic consequences of this...I'm convinced this is REALLY a bad idea, and not something to just oppose on anti-nationalist principles. An independent Scotland could very well end up like Spain or Italy now (not likely to be as bad as Greece of course, but heading in that general direction.)

no
Logged
Platypus
hughento
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 21,478
Australia


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #63 on: September 14, 2014, 09:50:11 AM »

Yes. Scotland is an individual nation, and should be an independent country.
Logged
Clarko95 📚💰📈
Clarko95
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3,590
Sweden


Political Matrix
E: -5.61, S: -1.96

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #64 on: September 14, 2014, 10:00:47 AM »

I would vote "No" myself, but I don't feel very strongly about this issue. It would make maps very nice and neat to have the UK remain as is, but it would be very interesting to see how an independent Scotland would set itself up and handle all the problems they would face from 2016 onwards.
Logged
WalterMitty
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 21,572


Political Matrix
E: 1.68, S: -2.26

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #65 on: September 14, 2014, 11:51:15 AM »

no.  a completely ridiculous idea.
Logged
Foucaulf
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,050
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #66 on: September 14, 2014, 11:57:04 AM »
« Edited: September 14, 2014, 12:02:04 PM by Foucaulf »


This idea seems far fetched. Why should we imagine such a thing in a country where integration works relatively smoothly? A recent poll showed 94% of minorities consider themselves Scottish, that's a pretty high number.

Why should the government even specifically "target" other groups  and not just threat them equally?

In the 2011 census only 4% of the population came from non-White ethnic minorities, so I don't know how you get to 10%+. There aren't that many adopted children in Scotland Wink


Sorry about the number; I pulled one out of my head and didn't cross-check it. I highly expect Scotland will have a skilled-worker focus, which is what I meant when I said "target". But there will be greater amounts of non-white skilled workers than white skilled workers, controlling for EU integration.

I guess I'm saying here is that there will be anti-immigration sentiments, and there will be a populist movement in an independent Scotland like we have seen in Western European countries. I am probably assuming here a decline with living standards associated with an independent Scotland.

You guys do realize that the economic arguments you are using for why Scotland should not leave the UK are similar to points made by anti-Free Staters in the 1920s as to why the Irish Free State would be a failure, right?

The Irish Free State was much poorer back then compared to Scotland today. Ireland upon independence didn't have a welfare state, free education or an international banking sector. Scotland has all of that, which makes the picture more complicated.

Again, there are important non-economic reasons for voting for independence. But for the Yes campaign to promise that an independent Scotland will have free higher education and subsidized daycare in 10-15 years is pure fantasy. If Scotland can vote to leave the UK, Scots can also vote with their feet.
Logged
politicallefty
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,200
Ukraine


Political Matrix
E: -3.87, S: -9.22

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #67 on: September 14, 2014, 12:07:49 PM »

I would vote against the referendum. Even if I lived in Scotland, I highly doubt I'd vote for the referendum. I think the United Kingdom is strongest as it currently is.

(Ultimately, however, I respect whatever decision the people of Scotland choose, as it is their sole choice to make.)
Logged
Oakvale
oakvale
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 11,827
Ukraine
Political Matrix
E: -0.77, S: -4.00

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #68 on: September 14, 2014, 12:09:36 PM »

Actually reading more about the potential economic consequences of this...I'm convinced this is REALLY a bad idea, and not something to just oppose on anti-nationalist principles. An independent Scotland could very well end up like Spain or Italy now (not likely to be as bad as Greece of course, but heading in that general direction.)

This is ridiculous. There'll be some teething pains if Scotland votes for independence but the idea that it'd be some kind of disastrous basket case is pure nonsensical propaganda. That's not to say it'd instantly be some kind of cartoonish liberal welfare paradise, either, but independent Scotland is not going to be a failed state.
Logged
politicus
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 10,174
Denmark


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #69 on: September 14, 2014, 12:34:48 PM »


Again, there are important non-economic reasons for voting for independence. But for the Yes campaign to promise that an independent Scotland will have free higher education and subsidized daycare in 10-15 years is pure fantasy. If Scotland can vote to leave the UK, Scots can also vote with their feet.


I think you are forgetting the brand value of becoming independent. Scotland has had remarkable growth rates in recent years in sectors like farmed salmonds, whisky, tweed and tourism with the Asian markets driving this. Independence will increase their brand value even further.  While this may sound like small fry, it isn't (I can look up the numbers, if you like).  Also the SNP plans to reinvest the oil profit in reindustialization of the country will have a positive effect, they have a strong tradition in craftsmanship and practical application of technology - renewable energy is an interesting area here. As the Danish windmill industry has shown, government subsidizing of this area pays of for small countries.
The present finance and resource extraction driven economy is not ideal for the country and a different economic model with industry, fish farms and tourism playing a bigger role would benefit Scotland in the long run.

Scots can vote with their feet, but most people don't leave their home country over small differences in living standards and the country would also attract immigrants and capital from outside Britain (Asian and Scandinavian in particular) if British companies leave. Scotland is basically an attractive place to be with a lot going for it and independence would increase its already high brand value and global profile.

Regarding right wing populism, this is likely to be a phenomenon in every European country, but I fail to see why it should be more of a problem in an independent Scotland, than in the present UK.
Logged
traininthedistance
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,547


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #70 on: September 14, 2014, 12:47:45 PM »

Scotland has had remarkable growth rates in recent years in sectors like farmed salmonds,

Nice Freudian typo there. Tongue

I mostly agree with Foucaulf; though I'd replace his worry about right-wing populism (not really much of an issue there I'd think) with a worry about how Scottish independence would be a pro-Tory gerrymander in the rest of the UK.  And, yes, that is a legitimate thing to care about.

If Scotland was proposing to have its own currency (and would be allowed to have one by the EU they would like to be a part of) then I would look more favorably upon the "Yes" crew.  But their current "solution" to the currency issue is obviously bad, and obviously looms large.
Logged
Oakvale
oakvale
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 11,827
Ukraine
Political Matrix
E: -0.77, S: -4.00

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #71 on: September 14, 2014, 01:16:49 PM »

I mostly agree with Foucaulf; though I'd replace his worry about right-wing populism (not really much of an issue there I'd think) with a worry about how Scottish independence would be a pro-Tory gerrymander in the rest of the UK.  And, yes, that is a legitimate thing to care about.

No it's not. The Scottish don't owe the rest of Britain a Labour government.

Not to mention that the importance of Labour's Scottish seats are overrated but that's not particularly relevant in this context.
Logged
politicus
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 10,174
Denmark


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #72 on: September 14, 2014, 01:19:24 PM »

Scotland has had remarkable growth rates in recent years in sectors like farmed salmonds,

Nice Freudian typo there. Tongue

I mostly agree with Foucaulf; though I'd replace his worry about right-wing populism (not really much of an issue there I'd think) with a worry about how Scottish independence would be a pro-Tory gerrymander in the rest of the UK.  And, yes, that is a legitimate thing to care about.

If Scotland was proposing to have its own currency (and would be allowed to have one by the EU they would like to be a part of) then I would look more favorably upon the "Yes" crew.  But their current "solution" to the currency issue is obviously bad, and obviously looms large.

England has in several post-war elections produced a Labour majority of its own and can do so again.

Its not up to the EU to decide whether Scotland should have its own currency. But I agree its a mistake not to create one, even if its understandable from a tactical POV.They can, however, decide to create one at a later date, so I think there is far too much emphasis on the currency question.
Logged
they don't love you like i love you
BRTD
Atlas Prophet
*****
Posts: 112,714
Ukraine


Political Matrix
E: -6.50, S: -6.67

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #73 on: September 14, 2014, 02:18:45 PM »
« Edited: September 14, 2014, 02:21:06 PM by black and white band photos »

I'd rather have all of the UK under a Labour government than it minus Scotland under a Tory government and Scotland under some yucky nationalist government.
Logged
Supersonic
SupersonicVenue
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,162
United Kingdom


Political Matrix
E: 4.90, S: 0.35

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #74 on: September 14, 2014, 02:21:40 PM »

I'm actually rather neutral on Scottish Independence, I've never been there, never plan to and I don't think I've ever actually met a Scot. If I had a say in the referendum I would vote no, but I wouldn't weep if Scotland did leave the Union.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5 6  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.068 seconds with 14 queries.