538: Important Distinction between "STEM" and "TEM" in Salary

[GaussLaw]

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/the-economic-guide-to-picking-a-college-major/

I thought this article was pretty interesting, especially the list of top-paying majors. 

While I knew engineering was a top field, I was surprised by how much it utterly dominated the top list.  The high salary for petroleum engineering is incredible, especially given that universities that offer such a degree program tend not to be particularly selective or expensive (perhaps a kid with 2300 SAT/high GPA could attend University of Tulsa to get a Petroleum Engineering Degreeand face far less competition than at a selective school, and for a far lower cost.  Certainly seems to be an easier path than facing tough competition at institutions like MIT, and the starting salary may be higher).  Of course, that field has a huge boom/bust cycle. 

Another key point in the article is that science majors  don't tend to pay very well; the "STEM" earnings advantage is mostly due to engineering, computer science, and math (sidenote:  the fact that actuarial was called a "business" major is pretty funny, considering that the difference between the average business student vs. actuarial student is enormous). 

What thoughts do you have, Atlas?  Any real surprising things you say in the list?

[Indy Texas]

You have to be admitted to the college of engineering at a lot of schools. You can't just be admitted and then decide you want to be an engineering major. And there is the risk of failing out and being forced into a less rigorous major and graduating with a lower GPA as a result.

I think the "special snowflake" complex has become so endemic that a lot of people just cannot tolerate being in a major where it's a given that they will mostly get Cs and Bs and will probably fail a few classes and have to retake them. Those are the people who'd rather major in psychology and graduate magna cum laude.

[GaussLaw]

You have to be admitted to the college of engineering at a lot of schools. You can't just be admitted and then decide you want to be an engineering major. And there is the risk of failing out and being forced into a less rigorous major and graduating with a lower GPA as a result.

I think the "special snowflake" complex has become so endemic that a lot of people just cannot tolerate being in a major where it's a given that they will mostly get Cs and Bs and will probably fail a few classes and have to retake them. Those are the people who'd rather major in psychology and graduate magna cum laude.

Fair enough.  I was just pointing out that a student with extremely good grades and test scores (who would certainly be admitted to the college of engineering at schools like U of Tulsa) might be better served economically going there than going to a more prestigious institution like MIT. 

As a physics teacher, the "special snowflake" complex is so real.  So many parents think their kid is a "genius".  I'm sorry, but if your kid can't grasp basic kinematics, he's probably not going to be the next Einstein.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Having graduated with a Bachelor's in Physics, I've quickly noticed that the only career path it actually qualifies you for is high school teacher (or grad school, but I'm getting off of this train). Awesome ROI on an academic path that has subjected me to four years of depression, loneliness, anxiety, and sleep deprivation.

[dead0man]

I make almost as much as the median for a nuclear engineer and I don't even have an associates degree (though I have well more than enough credits for one).  On the other hand, there is only like 300 people world wide that do what I do...on the other other hand, anybody with a handfull of brain cells to rub together can do my gig.

I have no idea what my point is either.

[GaussLaw]

     Having graduated with a Bachelor's in Physics, I've quickly noticed that the only career path it actually qualifies you for is high school teacher (or grad school, but I'm getting off of this train). Awesome ROI on an academic path that has subjected me to four years of depression, loneliness, anxiety, and sleep deprivation.

I think you'd be fine teaching high school.  It's what you make out of it, and the job isn't terribly stressful if you teach in a non-inner city school.   Sure, there's student apathy, parental complaints, etc, but nothing compared to the crap grad students have to go through...

[ilikeverin]

That's the thing, though... S fields are okay (depending on the field) if you commit to graduate school in some capacity, but the chart assumes you end after your undergrad degree.  For example, communicative sciences and disorders/speech pathology/whatever your school calls it is an excellent, lucrative, and highly in demand field if you commit to getting a master's degree after you graduate from undergrad.

Even then, though, there's generally an oversupply of S PhDs.  I know this because I'm in a highly oversupplied PhD market.  So, generally, yes; TEM is a lot better, money-wise and filling-demand-wise.  Too bad I have no practical abilities and could not design my way out of a wet paper bag

[muon2]

     Having graduated with a Bachelor's in Physics, I've quickly noticed that the only career path it actually qualifies you for is high school teacher (or grad school, but I'm getting off of this train). Awesome ROI on an academic path that has subjected me to four years of depression, loneliness, anxiety, and sleep deprivation.

The key to a physics BA or BS, for those who aren't interested in a PhD or teaching is to go for a Masters. They can take as little as one year if done as part of a combined BS/MS but rarely more than three years. The masters need not even be in physics. Engineering and Business schools like physics degrees because they already know the student can handle complex problem solving. Law schools and Med schools like them, too. Even if it is a MS in physics I've seen plenty of graduates get excellent jobs in STEM areas like technical project management, data mining, and quality testing.

[Indy Texas]

My 10th grade physics teacher had a PhD in physics from Rutgers.

He was an extremely difficult person and my impression was that he may have gotten screwed out of teaching positions because no one liked him. It was fine for him though because his wife is a patent lawyer so she makes all the money and he gets the low-stress job of teaching physics at a small, private high school.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Having graduated with a Bachelor's in Physics, I've quickly noticed that the only career path it actually qualifies you for is high school teacher (or grad school, but I'm getting off of this train). Awesome ROI on an academic path that has subjected me to four years of depression, loneliness, anxiety, and sleep deprivation.

I think you'd be fine teaching high school.  It's what you make out of it, and the job isn't terribly stressful if you teach in a non-inner city school.   Sure, there's student apathy, parental complaints, etc, but nothing compared to the crap grad students have to go through...

     I think teaching is something I would genuinely enjoy, actually. I'd just really like more career options. I have experience in administrative and analytical work and I have applied for many such jobs, but I frequently get asked why I am interested in these positions with a degree in Physics. It frustrates me because I know I wouldn't get that question if I had been an English major.

     Having graduated with a Bachelor's in Physics, I've quickly noticed that the only career path it actually qualifies you for is high school teacher (or grad school, but I'm getting off of this train). Awesome ROI on an academic path that has subjected me to four years of depression, loneliness, anxiety, and sleep deprivation.

The key to a physics BA or BS, for those who aren't interested in a PhD or teaching is to go for a Masters. They can take as little as one year if done as part of a combined BS/MS but rarely more than three years. The masters need not even be in physics. Engineering and Business schools like physics degrees because they already know the student can handle complex problem solving. Law schools and Med schools like them, too. Even if it is a MS in physics I've seen plenty of graduates get excellent jobs in STEM areas like technical project management, data mining, and quality testing.

     I'm really burned out on school these days. I'm working 55-60 hours a week now and I feel much better than I did in that last year of school. Granted I have no social life and have spoken to exactly two women my own age in the past month, but I am not nearly as stressed now as I had been. I see what you mean and I may end up doing that in the future, but for now I really just want to work and get my professional career started. I may be wrong, but there have been times when I felt like the degree was limiting my options.

[King]

Life isn't a get rich quick scheme.

[Person Man]

You have to be admitted to the college of engineering at a lot of schools. You can't just be admitted and then decide you want to be an engineering major. And there is the risk of failing out and being forced into a less rigorous major and graduating with a lower GPA as a result.

I think the "special snowflake" complex has become so endemic that a lot of people just cannot tolerate being in a major where it's a given that they will mostly get Cs and Bs and will probably fail a few classes and have to retake them. Those are the people who'd rather major in psychology and graduate magna cum laude.

Yeah.... but it really could depend on other things than just GPA. For example, my Computer Science GPA is only like .2 of a point lower than my Political Science GPA. I would tell people not worry about getting C's or God forbid getting a couple of D's and having to remediate over the summer or having a "victory lap".

[Indy Texas]

You have to be admitted to the college of engineering at a lot of schools. You can't just be admitted and then decide you want to be an engineering major. And there is the risk of failing out and being forced into a less rigorous major and graduating with a lower GPA as a result.

I think the "special snowflake" complex has become so endemic that a lot of people just cannot tolerate being in a major where it's a given that they will mostly get Cs and Bs and will probably fail a few classes and have to retake them. Those are the people who'd rather major in psychology and graduate magna cum laude.

Yeah.... but it really could depend on other things than just GPA. For example, my Computer Science GPA is only like .2 of a point lower than my Political Science GPA. I would tell people not worry about getting C's or God forbid getting a couple of D's and having to remediate over the summer or having a "victory lap".

Engineering is a different ballgame in that regard though. I don't know of any other majors where you can graduate with a sub-3.0 GPA and still probably be graduating with a job offer already lined up.

[Tetro Kornbluth]

So basically what that chart indicates is that financially doing a degree doesn't matter too much to your prospects unless its in a Maths-heavy science field or engineering. So why not psychology?

[Person Man]

You have to be admitted to the college of engineering at a lot of schools. You can't just be admitted and then decide you want to be an engineering major. And there is the risk of failing out and being forced into a less rigorous major and graduating with a lower GPA as a result.

I think the "special snowflake" complex has become so endemic that a lot of people just cannot tolerate being in a major where it's a given that they will mostly get Cs and Bs and will probably fail a few classes and have to retake them. Those are the people who'd rather major in psychology and graduate magna cum laude.

Yeah.... but it really could depend on other things than just GPA. For example, my Computer Science GPA is only like .2 of a point lower than my Political Science GPA. I would tell people not worry about getting C's or God forbid getting a couple of D's and having to remediate over the summer or having a "victory lap".

Engineering is a different ballgame in that regard though. I don't know of any other majors where you can graduate with a sub-3.0 GPA and still probably be graduating with a job offer already lined up.

A bachelor's is like a Masters...

[GaussLaw]

So basically what that chart indicates is that financially doing a degree doesn't matter too much to your prospects unless its in a Maths-heavy science field or engineering. So why not psychology?

Psych isn't too quantitative until graduate phD level, at least in the US.  It's basically just a slacker major in undergrad.

[GaussLaw]

You have to be admitted to the college of engineering at a lot of schools. You can't just be admitted and then decide you want to be an engineering major. And there is the risk of failing out and being forced into a less rigorous major and graduating with a lower GPA as a result.

I think the "special snowflake" complex has become so endemic that a lot of people just cannot tolerate being in a major where it's a given that they will mostly get Cs and Bs and will probably fail a few classes and have to retake them. Those are the people who'd rather major in psychology and graduate magna cum laude.

Yeah.... but it really could depend on other things than just GPA. For example, my Computer Science GPA is only like .2 of a point lower than my Political Science GPA. I would tell people not worry about getting C's or God forbid getting a couple of D's and having to remediate over the summer or having a "victory lap".

Engineering is a different ballgame in that regard though. I don't know of any other majors where you can graduate with a sub-3.0 GPA and still probably be graduating with a job offer already lined up.

Yeah, engineering/compsci are in a league of their own.  Actuarial science may be in that category but I suspect it would require a higher GPA (and is an extremely niche field).

Of course, being an engineering major is about double the effort of just about any other degree (except perhaps Math or Physics) so a 2.9 in Engineering is laudable, while a 2.9 in History is pretty pathetic.

[Person Man]

You have to be admitted to the college of engineering at a lot of schools. You can't just be admitted and then decide you want to be an engineering major. And there is the risk of failing out and being forced into a less rigorous major and graduating with a lower GPA as a result.

I think the "special snowflake" complex has become so endemic that a lot of people just cannot tolerate being in a major where it's a given that they will mostly get Cs and Bs and will probably fail a few classes and have to retake them. Those are the people who'd rather major in psychology and graduate magna cum laude.

Yeah.... but it really could depend on other things than just GPA. For example, my Computer Science GPA is only like .2 of a point lower than my Political Science GPA. I would tell people not worry about getting C's or God forbid getting a couple of D's and having to remediate over the summer or having a "victory lap".

Engineering is a different ballgame in that regard though. I don't know of any other majors where you can graduate with a sub-3.0 GPA and still probably be graduating with a job offer already lined up.

Yeah, engineering/compsci are in a league of their own.  Actuarial science may be in that category but I suspect it would require a higher GPA (and is an extremely niche field).

Of course, being an engineering major is about double the effort of just about any other degree (except perhaps Math or Physics) so a 2.9 in Engineering is laudable, while a 2.9 in History is pretty pathetic.

It's really the pre engineering math and physics that are the problem. After that, it's not that bad until you hit things like transports and compilers