What Made You Change Politically?
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Author Topic: What Made You Change Politically?  (Read 13372 times)
H. Ross Peron
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« on: September 16, 2014, 10:06:36 PM »
« edited: September 16, 2014, 10:50:27 PM by National Progressive »

For me it was this chart:

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TNF
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« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2014, 10:35:05 PM »

Copying and pasting and edited version of my response when you posed this question to me on the Religion and Philosophy board:

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Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck
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« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2014, 10:36:50 PM »

Living, working, going to school, and volunteering at Rutgers in Camden, NJ. 
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Fmr President & Senator Polnut
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« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2014, 12:53:37 AM »

Life experience and other forms of education.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2014, 04:28:43 PM »

I started out as a toned down version of Goldwater. What happened?

I went to university and watched people make stupid decisions* that will drastically affect their well being for years after. This lead me to believe that the government should take a strong role in discouraging poor decisions and encouraging good ones.

*My personal favourite was someone putting a Mediterranean cruise on their student line of credit.
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Oldiesfreak1854
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« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2014, 06:01:04 PM »

The Tea Party movement.
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Frodo
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« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2014, 07:00:44 PM »

The Iraq War -well, more accurately, Republican incompetence in the immediate aftermath of the overthrow of Saddam Hussein's regime. 
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AggregateDemand
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« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2014, 07:32:27 PM »

Education prevents people from becoming conservative or liberal. Life teaches people that good intentions are no substitute for competence.
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IceSpear
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« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2014, 08:38:07 PM »

Ayn Rand, of course.
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Illuminati Blood Drinker
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« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2014, 10:03:37 PM »

Really, I think the Libyan Revolution of 2011 was what pulled me away from batsh**t Maoist Third-Worldism to filthy capitalist liberalism. Gaddafi was a monster, and I didn't want to sit with anyone defending him as a noble hero, left or right. The rest kind of just snowballed from there into a general rejection of extremist leftism and transformation into a liberal interventionist progressive.
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TJ in Oregon
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« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2014, 10:10:14 PM »

I started out as a toned down version of Goldwater. What happened?

I went to university and watched people make stupid decisions* that will drastically affect their well being for years after. This lead me to believe that the government should take a strong role in discouraging poor decisions and encouraging good ones.

*My personal favourite was someone putting a Mediterranean cruise on their student line of credit.

How can we expect to improve as a people if the weak and stupid aren't allowed to weed themselves out?

We help them to become less weak and less stupid. Or at the very least, a functional version of their weak and stupid selves.
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Deus Naturae
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« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2014, 10:26:41 PM »

Really, I think the Libyan Revolution of 2011 was what pulled me away from batsh**t Maoist Third-Worldism to filthy capitalist liberalism. Gaddafi was a monster, and I didn't want to sit with anyone defending him as a noble hero, left or right. The rest kind of just snowballed from there into a general rejection of extremist leftism and transformation into a liberal interventionist progressive.
So, your true leftist phase on Atlas was just trolling?
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TNF
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« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2014, 10:27:23 PM »

Really, I think the Libyan Revolution of 2011 was what pulled me away from batsh**t Maoist Third-Worldism to filthy capitalist liberalism. Gaddafi was a monster, and I didn't want to sit with anyone defending him as a noble hero, left or right. The rest kind of just snowballed from there into a general rejection of extremist leftism and transformation into a liberal interventionist progressive.

So you jettisoned support for one form of authoritarianism for another? Also, weren't you like 11 when the Libyan conflict took place?
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traininthedistance
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« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2014, 11:27:01 PM »

While I've changed viewpoints on various issues here and there as I've been exposed to better facts and methodologies, I wouldn't really count that as major shifts, really they were refinements more than anything.  But there have been two big things:

a) when I was a little kid, I held several Catholic socon views, like being pro-life and anti-premarital sex and such...

and b) when I was young I preferred stand-on-principle radical tactics to working "within the system", and now I am by and large the opposite.

Changing A was a long, slow transition, which began when I started questioning why women couldn't be priests, and didn't really end until I was in college.  It was an accretion of many things which I couldn't really enumerate if I tried.

Changing B happened a lot quicker, and was the inevitable result of seeing what this caused:

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Person Man
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« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2014, 10:17:44 PM »

The short of it was that I just learned that a lot of people who were all about "mom, baseball and apple pie" we're just one bad day away from a felony. I cringe when I hear a lot of younger guys get on the soap box but that's the way I learned.  I think from some of the descriptions of these people, one of you said that "you met the conservative version of opebo".

Beyond that, I have always thought that tradition is always a good guide but that life would have no purpose if that's all there was.  
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #15 on: September 20, 2014, 06:25:45 AM »

I haven't changed much politically. Mostly, I've learnt to structure my views into a relatively coherent set of principles and replace gut-feel reactions with more careful reflection. You know, growing up.
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anvi
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« Reply #16 on: September 20, 2014, 10:16:51 AM »

I've told this story before and won't bore folks with the long version again.  My most recent change has been to general political disillusionment.  Basically, I'm not sure anymore if any one person's or group's stated political ideals can, in practice and in the long run, overcome natural and pervasive human shortsightedness, self-centeredness and conflict.  Ever-increasing conflict and polarization both within the U.S. and throughout the world, added to increasing intractability in the institutions I've worked in and the inability of people to communicate well with one another have brought this disillusionment on.  In saying this, I'm not just indicting unnamed others for their failings, but am indicting my own failures to understand, communicate and act effectively as well.  In the end, people really aren't what they consciously take themselves to believe, or what they say in any case.  People are what they do.  And it's human practices, especially in our relations with one another, that give the lie to our supposed ideals. 
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GaussLaw
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« Reply #17 on: September 21, 2014, 02:12:05 PM »

The Silent Scream by Bernard Nathanson.

I watched it a couple months ago and politically, I was pro-life in the past, but now I'm really pro-life and anti-legalized abortion.  I've never been the same since and have started to change my thinking on other issues because of it.  I'm tempted to change my I avatar to an R one (unthinkable a few months ago) because I really have a hard time supporting the Democrats due to this single issue.
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H. Ross Peron
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« Reply #18 on: September 21, 2014, 03:15:10 PM »

The Silent Scream by Bernard Nathanson.

I watched it a couple months ago and politically, I was pro-life in the past, but now I'm really pro-life and anti-legalized abortion.  I've never been the same since and have started to change my thinking on other issues because of it. 

Such as which issues?
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Foucaulf
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« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2014, 03:42:00 PM »

I guess I now believe very strongly in the following:

- Those who wish to change politics end up targeting two goals: actually devising change or building enough of a reputation to sustain a career on possibly devising change. But it is only right to aim for the former.
- People are not consistent about which groups for whom they want to fight or reduce suffering.
- Putting one's reputation on the line to fight for a cause is the best signal of one's beliefs.
- Those who advocate hardest to replace the market economy are also those who have never lived in a society without it.

Those are, well, rather abstract ideas. I think concretely it has made less opinionated on activism (whatever works will work) and more supportive of universal benefits as a way for groups to choose how to improve their lives.

Does that make me more right-wing? Possibly - but I don't really believe in that claptrap on the "entrepreneurial spirit" either.
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Atlas Has Shrugged
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« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2014, 04:43:42 PM »

My current ideology? Or my general changes over life? I’ll give the short story about my current, and largely consistent embrace of libertarianism over the last five years.

Ayn Rand *gasp*. Ayn Rand taught me that loving myself is ok. Having gone through elementary school and middle school being brainwashed by myself and others, her books, in particular The Fountainhead, woke a sleeping giant. I learned it is ok to love myself. I learned that it’s alright to do what I want to do in life, as long as it doesn’t harm others. For example, I wanted to work in political organizing, but never thought I could because I had no connections. After reading Atlas Shrugged, I walked into a campaign office and made those connections.

Don’t get me wrong, I do not embrace objectivism. I don’t believe in gutting a welfare system; in fact, I support an America first ideology in general with strong individualist leanings. If we are going to spend trillions of dollars at all, I’d rather see my neighbors have healthcare than see that money wasted on defeating ISIS. I’d rather see collectivism of any kind-racism, and anti-racism actions that are downright stupid (quotas, etc) torn down. I’d like to see the simple libertarian issues embraced (“muh cigarettes, muh guns, muh equal marriage) as much as I’d like to see a massive change in American culture from archaic community values that read like a cliché 1980s high school movie.

I believe in the individual as the first and foremost unit of life, and that the individuals rights should be protected at all costs. Which includes a government. What keeps one individual from impulsively killing another human being? A society with law and order. So I generally just consider myself conservative with individualist leanings.
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GaussLaw
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« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2014, 04:50:34 PM »

The Silent Scream by Bernard Nathanson.

I watched it a couple months ago and politically, I was pro-life in the past, but now I'm really pro-life and anti-legalized abortion.  I've never been the same since and have started to change my thinking on other issues because of it. 

Such as which issues?

Well, changing on abortion big time made me view the GOP in a much more sympathetic light in general.  Before, I had just viewed the party as a phony group only out for the best interests of the very rich at the expense of everyone else.  Now that I feel the GOP is critically right on one issue (and the Dems are critically wrong), the motives behind GOP positions make more sense to me.  

I still support lots of Democratic ideas, like raising the minimum wage, increasing Science/R&D/infrastructure spending, etc., but I also have a lot more sympathy for the pro-coal/oil-drilling groups, especially given those whose jobs are on the line because of it. Some arguments about economic freedom (though I still think the Koch Brothers are largely promoting it for their self-interest) have some salience as well.

That being said, my positions haven't really changed too much, but the lens through which I view disagreement has changed.  Whenever I see Democrats talking about social justice or doing what's right, I can't get "50 million abortions since Roe vs. Wade" out of my mind when I hear them talk.  While GOP justices supported Roe v. Wade in 1973, the Democrats seem to be the ones fully committed to protecting abortion rights now(if McCain/a Republican Senate were elected and got 2 favorable SC nominees, the Court just might allow states to chip away at abortion rights well beyond the Roe v. Wade restrictions.  As DC Al Fine pointed out in the past, to a pro-lifer, it's hard to look past a candidate's stance on abortion when looking at their overall view of issues.
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H. Ross Peron
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« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2014, 05:04:56 PM »

The Silent Scream by Bernard Nathanson.

I watched it a couple months ago and politically, I was pro-life in the past, but now I'm really pro-life and anti-legalized abortion.  I've never been the same since and have started to change my thinking on other issues because of it. 

Such as which issues?

Well, changing on abortion big time made me view the GOP in a much more sympathetic light in general.  Before, I had just viewed the party as a phony group only out for the best interests of the very rich at the expense of everyone else.  Now that I feel the GOP is critically right on one issue (and the Dems are critically wrong), the motives behind GOP positions make more sense to me.  

That actually reminds me of my personal viewpoint up until around two years ago-it was precisely the abortion issue that led me to justify the GOP's stances on other issues. That said, I'm sure there are plenty of sincere Republicans who aren't just out for 1%er interests but at the same time I note that many of the GOP's socioeconomic stances are not logically coherent with a motive to reduce the number of abortions or practise a consistent life ethic.

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The main difference IMO is that it is quite possible to be a pro-life and pro-coal/oil Democrat but it is at this point virtually impossible to be a Republican who supports even modest UHC legislation like the ACA.

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What you describe would literally require a perfect storm: 1) a Republican President, 2) a Republican Congress that would be able to overcome any potential filibuster especially since this would require a dramatic shift in the balance of the Court, 3) Supreme Court Justices willing actually willing to overturn or at least significantly modify Roe v. Wade (consider even John Roberts has said the decision to be "settled law"), 4)Pro-choice justices being willing to retire considering the circumstances, and 5) actual enforcement of any pro-life legislation (and such legislation would have to be ones that could and would significantly reduce the number of abortions not just invasive mandatory ultra-sound laws).

I daresay it is more realistic and plausible that the number of abortions would be reduced through the various socioeconomic policies of Democratic administrations (ie heavy social spending, increased guarantees to parental leave, expanded access to daycare, wider access to birth control) then hoping for such a Republican perfect storm. Considering it did not happen during the Reagan-Bush Sr. years or the administration of Bush Jr. when the Religious Right was far more robust than it is to-day the chances of it happening in any future Republican administrations are virtually nonexistant.
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GaussLaw
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« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2014, 08:05:06 PM »
« Edited: September 21, 2014, 08:09:16 PM by GaussLaw »

What you describe would literally require a perfect storm: 1) a Republican President, 2) a Republican Congress that would be able to overcome any potential filibuster especially since this would require a dramatic shift in the balance of the Court, 3) Supreme Court Justices willing actually willing to overturn or at least significantly modify Roe v. Wade (consider even John Roberts has said the decision to be "settled law"), 4)Pro-choice justices being willing to retire considering the circumstances, and 5) actual enforcement of any pro-life legislation (and such legislation would have to be ones that could and would significantly reduce the number of abortions not just invasive mandatory ultra-sound laws).

I daresay it is more realistic and plausible that the number of abortions would be reduced through the various socioeconomic policies of Democratic administrations (ie heavy social spending, increased guarantees to parental leave, expanded access to daycare, wider access to birth control) then hoping for such a Republican perfect storm. Considering it did not happen during the Reagan-Bush Sr. years or the administration of Bush Jr. when the Religious Right was far more robust than it is to-day the chances of it happening in any future Republican administrations are virtually nonexistant.

I agree that such a circumstance is unlikely, but as a staunchly pro-life person, I do consider abortion to be a form of murder.  Even if I considered unborn children as 1/2 a life, that would still be approximately 500,000 murders per year.  Even at 1/10 of a life, that's 50,000 per year.  Simply the calculations alone make the issue extremely important.  As such, even a small expected value of say 10% would accrue 50,000 lives saved per year.   So while a "perfect storm" is unlikely, it's absolutely essential in order to save countless lives.  

As such, it would seem antithetical to my values to support politicians who would deny any chance at a "perfect storm" occurring.  If the GOP does take the Senate decisively this year and somehow manages to win in 2016 (please Hillary don't run), then there's a decent chance that some pro-life justices will sneak through.  The best hope is that Roe v. Wade isn't necessarily overturned but rather rendered obsolete.  If the Supreme Court allows North Dakota's human life amendment, then personhood amendments could replace it.  That requires a minimum of 2 appointees as conservative as Thomas/Scalia/Alito.  Unlikely, but that could really put a dent in abortion.  More likely is chipping abortion down such that state restrictions after 3 months are OK.  This would take out the most barbaric forms of the practice in which the baby is already fully developed.

With regard to socioeconomic policies of Democratic administrations, it is a hopeful thought.  However, my problem is twofold:
1) From a standpoint of reducing abortion, the most liberal states (which often have more generous welfare) have more abortions per capita than conservative ones.
http://kff.org/womens-health-policy/state-indicator/abortion-rate/
Conservative policies seem to be more effective at reducing abortions at least at the state level than welfare.
2) The other problem is more personal.  Even if there may be fewer abortions voting for a Democrat, I still have to, in my conscience, justify voting for someone who thinks that the practice is legally acceptable.  I am supporting someone who is pro-baby killer (in my view).  Even if that makes logical sense, I just couldn't do it on a moral level.  

Good food for thought, Mung Beans.  Certainly something to chew over......

EDIT:  Also, while you can be a pro-coal, pro-life Democrat, the pro-life part gets sacrificed.  A few like Mike McIntyre are consistently pro-life, but the NRLC didn't endorse Joe Donnelly, who called himself "pro-life."  Voting for a justice who is on the "liberal" side is a vote for unqualified continuation of abortion.  I have a really hard time supporting Senators who backed Sotomayor or Kagan, both Democrat and Republican.  Since all Dems supported both of those justices, it makes me think they don't take being pro-life seriously.
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H. Ross Peron
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« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2014, 09:07:32 PM »

What you describe would literally require a perfect storm: 1) a Republican President, 2) a Republican Congress that would be able to overcome any potential filibuster especially since this would require a dramatic shift in the balance of the Court, 3) Supreme Court Justices willing actually willing to overturn or at least significantly modify Roe v. Wade (consider even John Roberts has said the decision to be "settled law"), 4)Pro-choice justices being willing to retire considering the circumstances, and 5) actual enforcement of any pro-life legislation (and such legislation would have to be ones that could and would significantly reduce the number of abortions not just invasive mandatory ultra-sound laws).

I daresay it is more realistic and plausible that the number of abortions would be reduced through the various socioeconomic policies of Democratic administrations (ie heavy social spending, increased guarantees to parental leave, expanded access to daycare, wider access to birth control) then hoping for such a Republican perfect storm. Considering it did not happen during the Reagan-Bush Sr. years or the administration of Bush Jr. when the Religious Right was far more robust than it is to-day the chances of it happening in any future Republican administrations are virtually nonexistant.

I agree that such a circumstance is unlikely, but as a staunchly pro-life person, I do consider abortion to be a form of murder.  Even if I considered unborn children as 1/2 a life, that would still be approximately 500,000 murders per year.  Even at 1/10 of a life, that's 50,000 per year.  Simply the calculations alone make the issue extremely important.  As such, even a small expected value of say 10% would accrue 50,000 lives saved per year.   So while a "perfect storm" is unlikely, it's absolutely essential in order to save countless lives.  

I see where you are coming from, because I was and remain a staunchly pro-life person (if you see any of comments on threads relating to abortion)-indeed this was what kept me a Republican as long as it did.

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Most likely the Republican Party, in such a situation, would prefer to focus on the economic aspects of their agenda as has been the case in previous administrations. If the Republicans were so concerned about abortion, why was not a Right to Life Amendment actively pushed by the Bush administration around 2005-06? We saw instead they preferred to push a nationwide gay marriage ban and Social Security 'reform", since the former was more popular than an abortion ban at the time thus being able to attract both core evangelical voters and more moderate voters with some conservative tendencies. And the field of probable 2016 GOP nominees-Christie, Walker, Paul-suggest a field far less concerned with social issues than Bush was. Were a conservative Justice to retire from the SC, I can see him being replaced with someone equally conservative but if a liberal justice (or Anthony Kennedy) were to retire than only a comparatively centrist justice (such as John Roberts) would be politically possible. As I indicated above, on the federal courts Republican judges have been just as prone to strike down these state laws on abortion-consider Eric Leroy Yeakel who struck down Texas's abortion restrictions for example. Additionally, the fact is while I do not wish to sound like an abortion apologist, the overwhelming majority of abortions (88-92%) happen in the first trimaster and most that happen in latter stages are due to health complications.
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OTOH, several European countries such as Germany have lower abortion rates than the United States does overall despite there being far less of a strong pro-life movement. I suspect that in the United States, abortion rates are skewed by many people going to states with greater abortion availability for abortions and also possibly by underreporting of illegal abortions/use of abortion pills.

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Many people here in past elections would have had no problem voting for say Henry Clay or Winfield Scott over the more explicitly anti-slavery candidates of the Liberty and Free Soil parties, even those candidates "condoned" slavery in the same sense pro-choice politicians condone abortion to-day.

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Several Republican senators (ie Lamar Alexander and Kit Bond) voted for the confirmation of one or both of Justices Kagan and Sotomayor. The margin is even more overwhelming if we look at Justice Ginsburg's confirmation.
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