Gun control loons getting loonier

[AggregateDemand]

The definition of insanity: people who've never owned a gun or fired a gun, telling Americans the proper way to buy, own and use firearms.

If people believe you can just point a laser at a target and then shoot it, I've got a bridge to sell them. The variables are vast, and the programming work is intense. Everything is custom in precision shooting, except for the most expensive mil-spec equipment, which costs as much as the PGF system and isn't necessarily available to civilians. PGF sells weapons systems, and the specify that the gun can only shoot certain types of cartridges.

The PGF is good for helping novice marksmen hit the broad side of a barn. If any of you have seen the Motherboard documentary, the long PGF kill was 1099 yards about 1 year ago. Youtube has videos of 12 year old kids making kills at that distance without PGF.

This is a tempest in a tea cup.

[AggregateDemand]

Also, for the aforementioned gun nuts, everything is a piece of evidence that Obama is going to take their guns. Literally everything.

Obama used the Russia/Ukraine crisis to ban the importation of Russian AK-pattern receivers and parts so........

Gun control loonies will literally use anything. The Clinton administration banned hi-capacity magazines, which turned gun dealers into millionaires.

[AggregateDemand]

The NRA reacted to Heller by soliciting for funds, saying they must redouble their efforts, as though Obama's reaction of doing nothing at all were all the proof anyone needed of his ill intent toward guns.

Do nothing? He just signed EO 13661, which effectively bans the importation of all Russian-made arms. Perhaps banning military equipment would be reasonable, but admin has banned everything, which was an opportunistic kick to the groin of the AK-47 pattern industry, which has very little to do with Russian military arms.

[AggregateDemand]

Setting aside the fact that the executive order was clearly not issued for the purpose of a gun ban, there's also the fact that there are multiple suppliers of AK-47 pattern weapons, not all of which are Russian, and the further fact that even if Russia were the sole source, there are plenty of other automatic and semi-automatic weapons of equivalent effectiveness available from a multitude of suppliers from many countries.  The idea that EO 13661 in either intent or effect has any impact on the ability of people to exercise their 2nd amendment rights is utter nonsense of the sort that can only be believed by those who don't ever bother to think at all on this issue, but proceed to reflexively duckspeak the views they hear from talk radio or the like.

Your argument is that the EO is not explicitly about gun control nor is it an effective form of gun control; therefore, it cannot be an anti-gun measure. Non sequitur?

Do you think the Obama administration understood what EO 13661 would do to the civilian arms market? Do you think it was necessary for the national security of Ukraine to ban the importation of WWII Russian surplus bolt-action rifles?

[AggregateDemand]

Do you think Obama would have had an easier time trying to convince European governments to impose sanctions on Russia if they could point out that he hadn't even stopped importing weapons from Russia?

I'm not sure, since he didn't include arms manufacturers in the original EO 13660. Instead, they were added as an apparent afterthought in EO 13661.

You should read 13661, and then you can decide for yourself whether or not the gun ban is conspicuously unrelated to the rest of the order.

[AggregateDemand]

Having read EO 13660 and EO 13661, could you please just point out the parts of them that you think amount to gun bans?

It's as plain as day in Section 1 (a)(ii)(B). Furthermore, this is not my opinion. Russian-manufactured firearms are no longer permitted for import.

[AggregateDemand]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Plain as day. Freeze the US assets and US commercial endeavors for all government officials of the Russian Federation and agents operating on their behalf.

PS - ban all arms importation, not just defense material.

[AggregateDemand]

So we should be supporting the Russian arms industry?

The location of the factory is a circumstantial detail demanded by US firearms consumers who want their AK pattern firearms to be manufactured in Russia. The guns are designed to comply with US regulations, and many are converted to fire American-made NATO ammunition (exception: AK-47 pattern). The guns are also customized with American parts. The relation to these guns to the Russian defense industry is quite weak, hence the exclusion of civilian firearms from the original EO.

I don't particularly care for tactical semi-automatic rifles, but for the people who love them, this was a shameless gun grab. Objectively speaking, it's difficult to find a legitimate justification.

[AggregateDemand]

This is getting kind of silly, and proving the point I was trying to make in the first place. Unabashed gun nuts will claim that anything is a gun grab, even an executive order putting financial pressure on an autocratic regime invading another country. Insane.

The EO is clear. The inclusion of arms manufacturers is conspicuous. I've explained why these Russian firearms are not closely-related (if at all) to the Russian defense industry or to the tribulations in Ukraine.

You're not doing your side any favors.

[AggregateDemand]

Yet equivalent firearms, including firearms made to the exact same specifications, that are made elsewhere are still available. Also those already imported are freely available.  As has already been said, only a gun nut could think this was an anti-gun measure instead of an anti-Putin measure.  It makes as much sense as thinking that EO 13651, banning the import of jadeite and rubies from Burma, is an anti-gemstone measure instead of an anti-Burmese junta measure.

The administration has already defined EO 13661 Section 1(a)(ii)(B) for us. It's the escalation of an otherwise reasonable anti-Russian-defense policy, haphazardly inserted into an executive order about freezing the US commercial enterprises of Russian Federation government officials.

PS-civilian-guns-are-banned-too is not a fabrication invented by gun nuts. It's in black and white. The existence of AK-pattern rifles in other countries does not change the nature or the intent of the regulation. The fat, bald accountant still buys a BMW to impress women, though it is merely an ineffective, narcissistic excess. Do you think the same impulses exist in politics? *laff*

Arguing that President Obama has motives beyond gun ban is like arguing that Republicans enact ineffective tax cuts for reasons other than their ideological affinity for tax cuts. Sure. Let's try to carry the river water back to the mountains so we can reclassify them as an everglade. That's a good use of time.

I'm merely trying to save you guys from the indignity of your endeavor.

[AggregateDemand]

Thank you for proving that you're not worth talking to.

As far as I'm concerned, the last post was my first argument based heavily upon conjecture about Obama's intent. From the beginning, you've argued that you know why Obama banned popular Russian civilian rifles; therefore, the ban didn't actually occur, and gun nuts are just making it all up.

Put yourself in my shoes, and contemplate the incredible good humor necessary to quote executive orders, as if they would have persuaded you. If you want to argue that you know intent, you must discredit other theories within a logical framework: If Obama knew the Russian gun-ban wouldn't eliminate AK-pattern rifles, how can you assume malice?

I responded to TF by questioning the assumption of fiduciary responsibility and reasonable person. See how it works?

[AggregateDemand]

Obama used the Russia/Ukraine crisis to ban the importation of Russian AK-pattern receivers and parts so........

This is what I said, which was correct then and is still correct now. Russian guns are banned, but not any particular design of Russian gun.

Furthermore, your argument is 1) I never said Russian guns are not banned, but 2) Russian guns are not banned.

[AggregateDemand]

Wrong.

The problem is that you don't understand the difference between Russian arms, meaning firearms built in Russia, and AK-pattern weapons, which happen to have been designed in Russia. In your mind, the expression "Russian AK-pattern" is redundant.

If you can't delineate between basic firearm concepts, why do you try to offer an opinion?