Ending Financial Havens for Islamic State (Debating)

[President Tyrion]

If I get no response, I will run a full vote on this amendment:

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Amendment offered by: Senator TNF

Sponsor Feedback: Split

Pending Resolution

Other Senators may still object at this time.

[TNF]

I would be willing to split the amendment as proposed.

For those of you objecting to Section 5, would you necessarily oppose a future amendment removing troops from Saudi Arabia alone? This seems to be one of the biggest sticking points for better relations in the Arab world. I know that Senator Lumine has voiced support for such, but how would those others who oppose Section 5 as it is currently written feel about an alternative that only withdrew troops from Saudi Arabia?

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

We have long-standing military presences in all of these countries and there's a big difference between withdrawing from a theatre of war and dismantling a full-blown military presence that has been established over many years.

There are also issues when it comes to security agreements between Atlasia and the countries listed. For example, we cannot renege on an agreement without there being consequences, including a reduction in good-will at a time when we want to foster greater good-will to deal with ISIS etc.

I would prefer an amendment which speaks to a phased withdrawal from Saudi Arabia over a year/18 months, in concert with the Saudi Government.

 

[TNF]

Very well then, I will offer an amendment outlining such a process as soon as we finish voting on the amendment in question.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Everything but section 5 is fine. Section 5 is a terrible idea.

Wait, what? You support Atlasian troops occupying the Middle East? I thought you were a Ron Paul supporter?

I oppose occupation of the Middle East. I think the withdrawal process proposed is a little bit too fast. The repatriation process needs a full year to develop. We're on the same side on this Deus.

[Deus Naturae]

We have long-standing military presences in all of these countries and there's a big difference between withdrawing from a theatre of war and dismantling a full-blown military presence that has been established over many years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Good lord.

This isn't theory, which might come as a shock, but dismantling established military presences DOES take time.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

"As the General (forgets name) would tell you, you could not withdraw our troops in six months if we started today" - Joe Biden at the Youtube/CNN debate 2007.

[Deus Naturae]

Good lord.

This isn't theory, which might come as a shock, but dismantling established military presences DOES take time.

Your point being? It may take a while to get our troops out safely, but that in itself isn't an argument for keeping them there indefinitely. Sorry, but "It's been like this for a long time" is not a logically valid argument for anything.

Also, I have to ask, were you abused by some sort of academic theorist as a child? Because your repeated references to the evils of "theory," even in discussions where no one has referenced any sort of esoteric theory, are getting annoying.

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

Good lord.

This isn't theory, which might come as a shock, but dismantling established military presences DOES take time.

Your point being? It may take a while to get our troops out safely, but that in itself isn't an argument for keeping them there indefinitely. Sorry, but "It's been like this for a long time" is not a logically valid argument for anything.

Also, I have to ask, were you abused by some sort of academic theorist as a child? Because your repeated references to the evils of "theory," even in discussions where no one has referenced any sort of esoteric theory, are getting annoying.

I'm not saying we can't ever leave. What I'm saying is that we can't just up and leave without certain elements being taken into consideration. Yes, including international agreements we have entered into.

I'm not dignifying that second paragraph with a response.

[President Tyrion]

A vote is now open on this amendment. Senators, please vote Aye (affirmative) or Nay (negative). You also have the option of actively Abstaining.

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[President Tyrion]

Senators, this amendment has been adopted without objection.

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[bore]

Nay

[Fmr President & Senator Polnut]

NAY

[TNF]

Aye

[Cranberry]

Nay

[Dr. Cynic]

Nay, sigh.

[Lumine]

Nay.

[MyRescueKittehRocks]

Nay

[President Tyrion]

This amendment has enough votes to fail. Senators have 24 hours to change their votes.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Nay

[President Tyrion]

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[/quote]

This amendment has failed, with the following vote:

Affirmative: TNF
Negative: Bore, Polnut, Cranberry, Cynic, Lumine, JCL, Yankee

Not voting: Deus, Cassius

[TNF]

Offering the following amendment:

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[Lumine]

Just as I explained before, I will take control of this slot for the time being, since there's no Vice-President.

Sponsor, your thoughts on this amendment?

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I might be willing to consider Saudi Arabia with regards to removing our presence.