Opinion of "True Leftists"
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Author Topic: Opinion of "True Leftists"  (Read 3551 times)
TheDeadFlagBlues
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« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2014, 03:55:02 PM »


This is a hyperbolic generalization. We owe a lot to "True Leftists" who focus their attention on building social movements in the workplace and in disadvantaged neighborhoods.
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CrabCake
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« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2014, 03:57:13 PM »

It depends. If they're people who are sincerely left-wing, I hold no grudge.

If however, they simply go for the old "World Socialist Weekly" approach - a refusal to entertain compromise or alternative ideas, then they're simply bores.
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traininthedistance
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« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2014, 04:08:27 PM »
« Edited: September 25, 2014, 04:10:54 PM by traininthedistance »


This is a hyperbolic generalization. We owe a lot to "True Leftists" who focus their attention on building social movements in the workplace and in disadvantaged neighborhoods.

That's... really not what's meant by the term; it's certainly not what I mean by it.  If you're focusing your efforts on grassroots organizing and such rather than electoral politics, then fine, I respect that, even if you're more radical than thou on whatever issue.  Hats off.  If you're gonna go and defend Putin and ISIS, or pick Nader over Gore even with hindsight, or entertain for one hot second the disgusting doctrine of "heighten the contradictions", then that's what I'm talking about.

And I say this in full knowledge of the fact that, as someone who will presumably be voting Hawkins instead of Cuomo this November, there are people who would consider me trueleft.
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bedstuy
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« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2014, 04:09:41 PM »

True leftist political ideology is basically the equivalent of hipster cultural ideology.  IE, "oh, you like Barack Obama, that's so mainstream." "I like Vladimir Lenin's early stuff."  Instead of, "I'm vegan and I wear knit caps all the time," "it's I'm a marxist and I oppose evil imperialists and side with the third world."

Like hipsters, they don't produce anything cultural relevant, they snipe at everything mainstream and constantly recycle old ideas and doctrines.  In both ideologies, the paramount idea is authenticity and ideological purity.  It's about a knee jerk reaction against anything identified with the dominant mainstream consensus, always showing how you know better and you have curated ideas that form a pure identity.  True leftist politics is more about showing how great you are and isolating from society, instead of engaging with politics and trying to make the world better.    It's a combination of being entirely jaded and self-obsessed, expressing your naive, adolescent rebellion through politics.  
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Redalgo
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« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2014, 04:56:51 PM »

They are well-intentioned activists who are more intelligent than they are wise, making them comparable to Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street enthusiasts. They should be heard out and have representation in government but tend to be hackish, caustic, and dogmatic enough that they neither deserve nor will likely ever have decent prospects to win over the hearts and minds of the masses.
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« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2014, 05:02:30 PM »

What's quite amusing is how True Leftists rave on attacking US "imperialism" all the time yet then go ahead and defend Putin's imperialistic actions.
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ElectionsGuy
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« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2014, 05:58:16 PM »

True Leftist is a word I've only heard on this forum. In fact, if you Google "true leftist" the first thing that pops up is an atlas forum thread.

HP, but of course that's not to say the all the people with those views are HPs.
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RR1997
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« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2014, 06:17:22 PM »

Pretty disgusting ideology. They seem to support a new murderous dictator or genocidal terror group every month, have little regard for the human rights of non-Westerners, and oppose policies that actually help the Western workers they care about because the policies are not perfectly socialist or whatever.
^
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Redalgo
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« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2014, 06:37:09 PM »

What's quite amusing is how True Leftists rave on attacking US "imperialism" all the time yet then go ahead and defend Putin's imperialistic actions.

To some extent, ya, though in the Russian example isn't there overlap between imperialism and irredental claims to territories adjacent their borders that were under Russian control for all but a couple decades since the late 18th century? The way Crimea was reclaimed was admittedly distasteful but not necessarily bad in its final results, though your point makes sense for ongoing aggression in other parts of Ukraine.
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Snowstalker Mk. II
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« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2014, 06:59:13 PM »

"Well we're not opposing all dictatorships, so might as well not oppose any of them."

^^^Literally True Leftist "logic."

It's cute that you think that "protecting human rights" or "spreading democracy" has anything to do with our motives for Middle Eastern intervention.

The people ISIS is raping, murdering, and enslaving don't give a fuçk what our motives are.

ISIS has gained a huge number of recruits since bombing began. Best provide humanitarian aid and maybe arm the Kurds. Regardless of whether the US bombing effort destroys ISIS (which I highly doubt), the underlying causes of the sectarian conflicts in Syria and Iraq are being palliated at best, much like the heavy-handed and utterly unaware US bombings of Libya and Serbia in the past.

And I think it's worth mentioning that every reform in American history can be traced to the organizing efforts (and the bourgeois's fear of revolution) of "True Leftists". Of course, liberal revisionists think that Roosevelt and Johnson simply dropped programs from the sky.
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TheDeadFlagBlues
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« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2014, 07:09:24 PM »


This is a hyperbolic generalization. We owe a lot to "True Leftists" who focus their attention on building social movements in the workplace and in disadvantaged neighborhoods.

That's... really not what's meant by the term; it's certainly not what I mean by it.  If you're focusing your efforts on grassroots organizing and such rather than electoral politics, then fine, I respect that, even if you're more radical than thou on whatever issue.  Hats off.  If you're gonna go and defend Putin and ISIS, or pick Nader over Gore even with hindsight, or entertain for one hot second the disgusting doctrine of "heighten the contradictions", then that's what I'm talking about.

And I say this in full knowledge of the fact that, as someone who will presumably be voting Hawkins instead of Cuomo this November, there are people who would consider me trueleft.

Sorry, this term is confusing. I'm not sure if it refers to basement-dwelling Stalinists, Socialist activists, soccer moms with Jill Stein bumperstickers or non-voting "alts" with sleeve tattoos.
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Illuminati Blood Drinker
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« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2014, 07:36:41 PM »

What's quite amusing is how True Leftists rave on attacking US "imperialism" all the time yet then go ahead and defend Putin's imperialistic actions.
Yes but anyway have you heard about SVOBODA???

Check and mate, imperialistard.
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IceSpear
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« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2014, 10:40:18 PM »

Pretty disgusting ideology. They seem to support a new murderous dictator or genocidal terror group every month, have little regard for the human rights of non-Westerners, and oppose policies that actually help the Western workers they care about because the policies are not perfectly socialist or whatever.

This exactly.

Honestly, I would be OK with True Leftists if they would just stick to domestic economic issues, where they tend to be naive and useless, but they at least have their heart in the right place. Foreign Policy True Leftism, on the other hand, is a force of evil that needs to be crushed. I seriously have more respect for neocons than from the "let's do nothing" crowd.

This.

Honestly, True Leftists wouldn't be that bad if they would get their head out of the clouds and realize that politics is the art of the possible. Writing in a candidate who's been dead for centuries isn't going to do a damn thing to get you closer to your left wing utopia, but supporting the person closest to your ideological views (even if they're very far away) will at least make the country incrementally closer to your left wing utopia, which is better than nothing. And no, your viva la revolucion is not on the horizon, despite the fact that you guys claim is it close to happening as often as people peddle end of the world conspiracy theories. Of course, I expect the typical (and obviously incorrect) response about how both parties are the same and thus there is no point in supporting Democrats. As we all know, Ted Cruz and Elizabeth Warren are two sides of the same coin. Roll Eyes
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IceSpear
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« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2014, 10:47:32 PM »

"Well we're not opposing all dictatorships, so might as well not oppose any of them."

^^^Literally True Leftist "logic."

It's cute that you think that "protecting human rights" or "spreading democracy" has anything to do with our motives for Middle Eastern intervention.

The people ISIS is raping, murdering, and enslaving don't give a fuçk what our motives are.

ISIS has gained a huge number of recruits since bombing began. Best provide humanitarian aid and maybe arm the Kurds. Regardless of whether the US bombing effort destroys ISIS (which I highly doubt), the underlying causes of the sectarian conflicts in Syria and Iraq are being palliated at best, much like the heavy-handed and utterly unaware US bombings of Libya and Serbia in the past.

And I think it's worth mentioning that every reform in American history can be traced to the organizing efforts (and the bourgeois's fear of revolution) of "True Leftists". Of course, liberal revisionists think that Roosevelt and Johnson simply dropped programs from the sky.

And had Roosevelt/Johnson and Congress listened to True Leftist legislative "strategy", all those programs and reforms would've been trashed for not being pure enough. Cutting off your nose to spite your face is a crucial aspect of True Leftist ideology.
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H. Ross Peron
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« Reply #39 on: September 26, 2014, 12:32:33 AM »

True Leftists are often selective in applying their principles. For example they seem to like Robespierre even though considering his guillotining of Hebert they are better off under the fascist neoliberal imperalist coporatist Obama regime than that True Leftist hero. Lincoln gets a pass even though he was willing to compromise over slavery until late into the war and was quite sympathetic to a colonization scheme.
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Starbucks Union Thug HokeyPuck
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« Reply #40 on: September 26, 2014, 01:13:55 AM »

I don't know much about True Leftism other than being cited by someone in an old thread as one of them. 
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Velasco
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« Reply #41 on: September 26, 2014, 02:53:42 AM »
« Edited: September 26, 2014, 03:19:31 AM by Velasco »

The "True Left" is a mythological beast conjured up by red avatars to attack people who hold policy positions that they dislike whether it is voting for a non-Democratic candidate, advocating for likely unfeasible legislative action or being against Obama. Many of these positions coincide with one another but they're not indicative of coherent viewpoints. Someone who is a self-described Socialist could just as easily be labeled a progressive Democrat as a "True Leftist" depending on the circumstances.

I'm still struggling to know what is a "True Leftist". Bravo ^^^

As for the ISIS thing. Focusing the debate in bombing or not those barbarians is staying in the surface of the problem, in my opinion. The situation on the ground just makes inevitable taking some military action. However, bombing ISIS is far from being a durable solution to the long-term problems in the Middle East, it's only a stop-gap response. I guess people is able to realise of that and criticism on the US past and present policies in the region is absolutely legitimate, because they are not unrelated with the phenomenon. To be honest, I see no great difference between certain infantile leftism and some 'progressive' Democrats failing to see how ineffective has been the current US administration in taking actions in order to prevent the aggravation of the situation in the whole region, or at least to help laying the foundations for a more permanent solution. The recollection of Hilary's performance in the Israel-Palestine conflict, to take an example, would make me impossible voting for her, in the case that I was eligible to vote there... I still find Obama likeable, to certain extent, but I can't afford to ignore how disappointing has been his failure in the Middle East or his stance in the last UN Climate Summit.
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AggregateDemand
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« Reply #42 on: September 26, 2014, 03:24:25 AM »
« Edited: September 27, 2014, 10:32:58 AM by AggregateDemand »

Depends on the issue. In some ways they are much better than American liberals.

A true leftist would never spend $1T on healthcare, but only cover 1/3 of the population. European socialists certainly don't stand for it. Pork-barreled spending of that magnitude is the calling card of the American liberal. "Waste is a virtue. Vote Democrat".

True leftists don't support "unions" that sell jobs to automation companies or foreign countries for a 5% bump in legacy benefits. American liberals don't even think twice.

The downfall of the true left is their lackluster support of individual liberty. The American Left tends to get that part right, despite their other shortcomings. That's why the American Left is in business and the True Left is just an abstract idea.
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Snowstalker Mk. II
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« Reply #43 on: September 26, 2014, 10:10:38 AM »

"Well we're not opposing all dictatorships, so might as well not oppose any of them."

^^^Literally True Leftist "logic."

It's cute that you think that "protecting human rights" or "spreading democracy" has anything to do with our motives for Middle Eastern intervention.

The people ISIS is raping, murdering, and enslaving don't give a fuçk what our motives are.

ISIS has gained a huge number of recruits since bombing began. Best provide humanitarian aid and maybe arm the Kurds. Regardless of whether the US bombing effort destroys ISIS (which I highly doubt), the underlying causes of the sectarian conflicts in Syria and Iraq are being palliated at best, much like the heavy-handed and utterly unaware US bombings of Libya and Serbia in the past.

And I think it's worth mentioning that every reform in American history can be traced to the organizing efforts (and the bourgeois's fear of revolution) of "True Leftists". Of course, liberal revisionists think that Roosevelt and Johnson simply dropped programs from the sky.

And had Roosevelt/Johnson and Congress listened to True Leftist legislative "strategy", all those programs and reforms would've been trashed for not being pure enough. Cutting off your nose to spite your face is a crucial aspect of True Leftist ideology.

No, the point is that all those social programs were deliberate (and in FDR's case explicit) attempts to preserve the fundamental status quo. Similarly I am not deluded enough to think that the Democrats and Republicans are exactly the same--but once you cut out most of the semantic arguments and most of the posturing, they're not too far apart. This is why "working within the Democratic Party" or "voting for the lesser of two evils" has been such a failed strategy for so long--you cannot change a party whose fundamental purpose is to protect society's elites. I'd like to peddle this blog post by one of our posters for further reading.
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IceSpear
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« Reply #44 on: September 26, 2014, 01:01:55 PM »

I don't know much about True Leftism other than being cited by someone in an old thread as one of them. 

Impossible since you self-identify as a Democrat.
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IceSpear
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« Reply #45 on: September 26, 2014, 01:04:25 PM »

"Well we're not opposing all dictatorships, so might as well not oppose any of them."

^^^Literally True Leftist "logic."

It's cute that you think that "protecting human rights" or "spreading democracy" has anything to do with our motives for Middle Eastern intervention.

The people ISIS is raping, murdering, and enslaving don't give a fuçk what our motives are.

ISIS has gained a huge number of recruits since bombing began. Best provide humanitarian aid and maybe arm the Kurds. Regardless of whether the US bombing effort destroys ISIS (which I highly doubt), the underlying causes of the sectarian conflicts in Syria and Iraq are being palliated at best, much like the heavy-handed and utterly unaware US bombings of Libya and Serbia in the past.

And I think it's worth mentioning that every reform in American history can be traced to the organizing efforts (and the bourgeois's fear of revolution) of "True Leftists". Of course, liberal revisionists think that Roosevelt and Johnson simply dropped programs from the sky.

And had Roosevelt/Johnson and Congress listened to True Leftist legislative "strategy", all those programs and reforms would've been trashed for not being pure enough. Cutting off your nose to spite your face is a crucial aspect of True Leftist ideology.

No, the point is that all those social programs were deliberate (and in FDR's case explicit) attempts to preserve the fundamental status quo. Similarly I am not deluded enough to think that the Democrats and Republicans are exactly the same--but once you cut out most of the semantic arguments and most of the posturing, they're not too far apart. This is why "working within the Democratic Party" or "voting for the lesser of two evils" has been such a failed strategy for so long--you cannot change a party whose fundamental purpose is to protect society's elites. I'd like to peddle this blog post by one of our posters for further reading.

The Tea Party has certainly changed the direction of the GOP.
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Horus
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« Reply #46 on: September 26, 2014, 01:11:23 PM »

Lean HPs.
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Snowstalker Mk. II
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« Reply #47 on: September 26, 2014, 01:25:46 PM »

The Tea Party does not advocate a fundamental shift of the existing social order.
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windjammer
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« Reply #48 on: September 27, 2014, 08:13:25 AM »

Something that doesn't exist outside the internet.

Even Sanders isn't a true leftist.
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Mopsus
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« Reply #49 on: September 27, 2014, 09:02:47 AM »

ISIS has gained a huge number of recruits since bombing began.

Cite?

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The objective of the current bombing campaign is to accelerate the destruction of the Islamic State. If the IS were to disband tomorrow, only to be replaced by an Islamist state that doesn't have a policy of wanton rape, murder, and slavery, then the campaign would have been a success.

We aren't trying to fix all the problems in the Middle East with bombs. We're trying to destroy an organization that doesn't deserve to inhabit this planet.
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