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Author Topic: Recall Amendment (Debating)  (Read 195 times)
Senator bore
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« on: December 17, 2014, 07:50:27 pm »
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Recall Amendment

1. All elected offices are subject to revocation. Once 1/2 of the term of office to which an official has been elected has elapsed, a number of voters representing at least 25 percent of the registered voters in the affected constituency may petition for the calling of a referendum to revoke that official's mandate.
2. When a number of voters equal to or greater than the number of those who elected the official vote in favor of the recall, provided that a number of voters equal to or greater than 25% of the total number of registered voters vote in the recall referendum, the official's mandate shall be deemed revoked and immediate action shall be taken to fill the vacancy as provided by law.
3. Recall elections shall begin between 0000 Eastern Standard Time on the Thursday preceding the penultimate Friday of the election month and 0001 Eastern Standard Time on the penultimate Friday itself, and shall conclude exactly 72 hours after beginning, following the certification of signatures on recall petitions by the Secretary of Federal Elections.
4. The Secretary of Federal Elections shall administer all recall elections, regardless of whether or not the official in question was elected by a ballot administered or opened by the Secretary of Federal Elections.

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Senator Polnut
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« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2014, 09:22:06 pm »
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Wait....

So, correct me please if I'm wrong... I think this thing needs some commas.

But if an official has 25% of registered voters petition for a recall, and if more people vote for the recall, than voted for the official in the first instance, provided it is more than 25% of registered voters, then they're recalled?

I think there would be a significant equity issue for people who were elected, say, before a large population influx. Let's say...

Candidate A - gets 13 votes
Candidate B - gets 9 votes
... total registered voters - 29 = turnout 22/29 = 72.4%

In the proceeding months there's an influx of say 5 new voters. Increasing the registered voter numbers to 34.

A recall petition is started, say... 10 people sign - that's 29.4% of registered voters.

In the ballot for recall
Yes gets 15
No gets 16

That's 15/34 = 44.1%of registered voters voted for the recall and in raw numbers, greater than those who voted for Candidate A in the first election- but 51.6% of voters, voted against the recall...

Clearly Senator TNF has some specific scenarios he wishes to address with this... or he wishes to clarify the mechanism, I don't think this is an especially fair process.

Let alone my personal distaste for loading our Constitution up with stuff like this.
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Bacon King
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« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2014, 09:45:44 pm »
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edit- I left the page open for a while before posting so I didn't see polnut posted above me so he might also have concerns like mine

I like the idea, but my concerns:

A. Some (all?) regions already have a way to recall their elected officials. This amendment should explicitly state either that existing regional recall procedures are replaced by this process, or that this process shall only occur on the regional level in regions that don't have recall elections. Otherwise it'd be very confusing to have two competing recall procedures in existence at the regional level.
B. I don't like the requirements in Section 2 because it allows for the possibility of someone getting recalled even if a majority vote against the recall. Also the way it's set up there's no reason to vote against a recall: if you're opposed to a recall it's better to just not vote, in an attempt to keep turnout below 25%, because the election itself is just determined if there are enough voters in favor of the recall.
C. I don't like the requirement that it has to be on a specific day of the month. Why not just have the recall occur the weekend after the SOFE certifies the petition?
D. I'd prefer if this was specifically added to some portion of the Constitution proper, because standalone amendments are really difficult to notice given the constitution's setup on the wiki

« Last Edit: December 17, 2014, 09:56:42 pm by Bacon King »Logged

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Senator TNF
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« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2014, 09:35:44 am »
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I'm fine with changing what needs to be changed in order to get this ratified.

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Mideast Senator windjammer
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« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2014, 05:56:34 am »
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I will not vote for it.
At large elections allow people with not mainstream views: Deus, JCL to be elected. The recall would likely recall them both.
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Senator Cranberry
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« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2014, 05:20:43 pm »
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Is there even a constitutional mandate for the Senate to force this bill on to the regional level?
But even so, as Polnut showed us, that system is a bit weird... I would just say, the guy needs 55% and at least 25% of the last election's turnout, to be recalled?

But I like the prospect of recalling in theory, so I will probably support this. But maybe we could make an exception for President and Vice President?
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Senator Polnut
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« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2014, 01:11:47 am »
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Again, I'd like to ask Senator TNF to advocate for this Bill. Why this mechanism is required etc etc.
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Senator TNF
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« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2014, 10:03:24 am »
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Voters should be able to recall any elected official they like. It's pretty straightforward.
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President LumineVonReuental
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« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2014, 08:20:52 pm »
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Wouldn't this be used as an excuse to get rid of officeholders we simply don't like? One thing is to have more transparency and accountablility for public servants, but this has the clear potential to go too far, not to mention it would enable people to pretty much destroy the At-Large Senators.
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2014, 09:57:41 pm »
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For reasons stated by Senator Windjammer, I hope the Senate rejects this amendment unless we apply it only to the President and Vice President.

Because of the way at-large senators are elected, whichever side (left or right) has more voters could easily recall those on the other side and replace them with their own, creating a 5-0 majority one way, which would not be an accurate reflection on the population at-large.
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Senator bore
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« Reply #10 on: Today at 07:38:20 am »
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Perhaps we could have a recall for regional senators and the president/ vice president, but only if a majority of the voters in the last election want one.

So say Polnut won a regional seat against Deus, like this:

Polnut: A, B, C, D

Deus: E,F,G

then for polnut to be recalled a majority of the people A, B, C, D, E, F, G would have to want it.
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Senator Cranberry
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« Reply #11 on: Today at 10:25:07 am »
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But is it in our authority to make laws regarding the recalls of regional senators? Shouldn't that better be left to the regions?
Also, I echo the comments made why recall of individual at-large Senators is not that good an idea.
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Senator TNF
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« Reply #12 on: Today at 10:25:39 am »
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For reasons stated by Senator Windjammer, I hope the Senate rejects this amendment unless we apply it only to the President and Vice President.

Because of the way at-large senators are elected, whichever side (left or right) has more voters could easily recall those on the other side and replace them with their own, creating a 5-0 majority one way, which would not be an accurate reflection on the population at-large.

No one asked for your input.
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Mideast Senator windjammer
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« Reply #13 on: Today at 12:40:55 pm »
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Quote from: Amendment offered
Recall Amendment

1. All elected offices are subject to revocation. Once 1/2 of the term of office to which an official has been elected has elapsed, a number of voters representing at least 25 100 percent of the registered voters in the affected constituency may petition for the calling of a referendum to revoke that official's mandate.
2. When a number of voters equal to or greater than the number of those who elected the official vote in favor of the recall, provided that a number of voters equal to or greater than 25100% of the total number of registered voters vote in the recall referendum, the official's mandate shall be deemed revoked and immediate action shall be taken to fill the vacancy as provided by law.
3. Recall elections shall begin between 0000 Eastern Standard Time on the Thursday preceding the penultimate Friday of the election month and 0001 Eastern Standard Time on the penultimate Friday itself, and shall conclude exactly 72 hours after beginning, following the certification of signatures on recall petitions by the Secretary of Federal Elections.
4. The Secretary of Federal Elections shall administer all recall elections, regardless of whether or not the official in question was elected by a ballot administered or opened by the Secretary of Federal Elections.


The only situation where I could back it
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Senator Polnut
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« Reply #14 on: Today at 05:01:55 pm »
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Quote from: Amendment offered
Recall Amendment

1. All elected offices are subject to revocation. Once 1/2 of the term of office to which an official has been elected has elapsed, a number of voters representing at least 25 100 percent of the registered voters in the affected constituency may petition for the calling of a referendum to revoke that official's mandate.
2. When a number of voters equal to or greater than the number of those who elected the official vote in favor of the recall, provided that a number of voters equal to or greater than 25100% of the total number of registered voters vote in the recall referendum, the official's mandate shall be deemed revoked and immediate action shall be taken to fill the vacancy as provided by law.
3. Recall elections shall begin between 0000 Eastern Standard Time on the Thursday preceding the penultimate Friday of the election month and 0001 Eastern Standard Time on the penultimate Friday itself, and shall conclude exactly 72 hours after beginning, following the certification of signatures on recall petitions by the Secretary of Federal Elections.
4. The Secretary of Federal Elections shall administer all recall elections, regardless of whether or not the official in question was elected by a ballot administered or opened by the Secretary of Federal Elections.


The only situation where I could back it


100% of registered voters? Really?
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #15 on: Today at 05:11:35 pm »
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For reasons stated by Senator Windjammer, I hope the Senate rejects this amendment unless we apply it only to the President and Vice President.

Because of the way at-large senators are elected, whichever side (left or right) has more voters could easily recall those on the other side and replace them with their own, creating a 5-0 majority one way, which would not be an accurate reflection on the population at-large.

No one asked for your input.
My understanding was that citizens were allowed to give input in Senate debate threads. If that is no longer the case, I ask that PPT Bore or Dean Yankee let me know and I won't interrupt again.
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