Senate Protest and Analysis Thread

[Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Sorry, I'll vote against the bill should any effort to remove the 'Buy Atlasian' provision be removed. We need something to stimulate the manufacturing sector which has been on the decline for decades, and outsourcing most, if not all, of our materials isn't an Atlasian stimulus, it's a Chinese stimulus. As for 3 and 4, I'm sure we can work together on something there.

However, I do think that temporary nationalization of the Atlasian auto companies is the best course of action, for a variety of reasons.

There you go again Senator ignoring the negative consequences of your own actions. Those provisions risk a trade war at a time when our exports are falling and contributing to the growing unemployement, it would be the height of irresponsibility to pursue such a course. The Global economy is slumping and so there needs to be stimulus worldwide. The idea that you can isolate our economy would lead to a permenent Depression. Indeed the Smoot Hawley passed in 1930 jacked up tariff rates, a trade war ensued after which our exports plunged and Depression grew deeper. You want to help Manufacturing then invest in Technology, make our tax rates competative with foriegn manufacturers, and stop letting Unions drive them into the ground.

[Senator MaxQue]

I don't know if Marokai and Lief are open to that, but I am open to put Canada and European Union in the ''Buy Atlasian'' clause.

[President Marokai]

There you go again Senator ignoring the negative consequences of your own actions. Those provisions risk a trade war at a time when our exports are falling and contributing to the growing unemployement, it would be the height of irresponsibility to pursue such a course. The Global economy is slumping and so there needs to be stimulus worldwide. The idea that you can isolate our economy would lead to a permenent Depression. Indeed the Smoot Hawley passed in 1930 jacked up tariff rates, a trade war ensued after which our exports plunged and Depression grew deeper. You want to help Manufacturing then invest in Technology, make our tax rates competative with foriegn manufacturers, and stop letting Unions drive them into the ground.

Okay, well, let's start off with something simple: You haven't a clue what you're talking about. For the sake of economic debate, I'll be referring to Atlasia as the US, using real-life statistics.

The global economy is indeed slumping and other countries have alot of work to do when it comes to stimulating our own economies. But the idea that I'm "ignoring the consequences of my own actions" is ludicrous. The U.S. (aka Atlasia) should not be stimulating the world on our own, other countries should stimulate their economies on their own. We can maintain trade, and make things easier for people to get into the market, but we need to be realistic about the real effect certain policies have on the economy, and, for one, "Buy Atlasian" ain't got nuthin' on Smoot-Hawley.

Smoot-Hawley jacked up tariffs to record levels (more than quadrupling them) on over 20,000 types of imported products and effectively choked off trade to Europe and other areas of the world very quickly. This provision does nothing of the sort and pretending it does is the height of ignorance. This clause of the bill simply mandates that a great deal of the manufacturing material involved in projects funded by the stimulus package will be created/manufactured from Atlasian businesses and workers, it doesn't stop other projects from being funded by foreign sources, it doesn't block foreign sources from doing trade with us in any other way, and it still allows a full 33% of stimulus project materials to be obtained from other countries.

Protectionism is never a great policy when it's the only solution, and raising tariffs is seldom a bright idea when it comes to fixing the economy or raising revenue, but this is neither serious protectionism nor tariff raising, nor any other sort of trade restriction. I'm baffled that you would even pretend that they're on the same level.

Manufacturing employment has been dropping for years now and during that time, our exports slow and our reliance on Chinese imports skyrockets. There's an interesting article from 2002 that talks about the history of our trade and manufacturing relations with China since the end of the 80s, "Between 1989 and 2001, though U.S. exports to China more than tripled, imports from China increased eightfold, causing a whopping twelvefold surge in the U.S-China trade deficit."

You might be thinking "Well, a drop in employment is understandable as long as output continues to increase." Not so in most cases. Manufacturing output as either stalled, or, as government statistics have shown of industrial output overall, has consistently, with blips throughout the rapid economic expansion after the fall of the Soviet Union, fallen lower and lower, and the overall peaks of industrial output have been less strong with each peaking. (These are less broad and somewhat unrelated, but California and Nebraska manufacturing employment numbers are somewhat startling.)

My point is this, our reliance on Chinese imports is hurting our industry and our ability to manufacture and to export. Free trade generally does increase jobs in certain sectors, but this is often at the expense of our manufacturing output, and we can't keep ignoring our ability to manufacture in favor of pencil pushing and service management jobs. The "Buy Atlasian" Provision makes it so we mandate a small portion of our overall manufacturing work be produced and done in Atlasia by Atlasians, and gives our manufacturing sector a much needed boost. Protectionism, in small doses as to not choke off trade or offend other nations, is not always a bad thing. Nations need an element of self-sufficiency.

And this ties into the argument for temporary nationalization of the 3 Auto-Makers. The success of the "Big 3" is not only an economic concern, but a concern of national security. These auto-makers often provide quick support for the military when materials and army trucks, jeeps, and even tanks and artillery are needed. These security demands increase our industrial production and manufacturing employment (which is, consequently, another contributor to the unusual freeze of manufacturing employment throughout the 90's, because of every other decade experiencing falls since WWII) and made sure that we could always rely on ourselves rather than other nations in fighting our wars.

There are, of course, obvious concerns economically as well. We could lose millions of jobs in the auto-making industry alone if we do nothing, not to mention the additional millions of jobs that are indirectly dependent on that sector.

Moving on to your other (asinine) points, taxes are often overblown, and there's only so long we can whine about them. The taxpayer is now dealing with one of the lowest tax burdens in decades and other tax hikes, such as FDR's during the Great Depression, Reagan's during the period of economic expansion under his two terms, and Clinton's in the first year of his term (which were surprisingly broad, by the way) all had no noticeable negative effects on the economy. Especially Clinton's, which Republicans said would kill jobs, did nothing to stop the 23 million jobs created under Clinton's tenure.

Business taxes can be lowered, sure, we do have one of the highest (and some things put it at the highest) business tax rate in the world, but we should caution ourselves from just taking a hatchet to the business tax rate. Something like that is neither responsible, more effective than modest cuts, nor just economically sound at all. Permanent tax cuts are often bad, bad economic stimulus, and slashing the business tax rate has almost no sensible economic efficiency on the dollar in comparison to other measures we could be taking. These tax cuts are modest and A) More psychological than seriously impacting, which does matter. And B) Designed to focus on very small businesses where tax cuts have a more sensitive effect.

Your union bashing is similarly dumb. Sticking to the topic of manufacturing work in auto-plants, non-unionized foreign auto-plants are very competitive with US-unionized plants in terms of pay. There is no union-bashing to be done here, just business mismanagement. If you take a closer look at the numbers provided as comparisons, the major difference between the two are legacy costs which, dumbed down for you if you're too lazy to check the link, are things like pensions, healthcare benefits for retired workers, etc.

WAGES: Base hourly wages and cost of living adjustments
    * UAW: $29
    * Transplants: $26

WAGE RELATED: Paid vacation, overtime, holidays, night and weekend pay, break time
    * UAW: $14
    * Transplants: $9

BENEFITS: Healthcare, training, etc
    * UAW: $12
    * Transplants: $11

LEGACY COSTS (Without VEBA): Pension and healthcare benefits for retirees
    * UAW: $16
    * Transplants: $3

LEGACY COSTS (With VEBA): Pension and healthcare benefits for retirees
    * UAW: $3
    * Transplants: $3

TOTAL LABOR COST:
    * UAW (without VEBA): $71
   * UAW (with VEBA): $58
    * Transplants: $49
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2008/12/13/299179.html

This is, further, an argument that government management can bring forward the necessary changes that throwing money at the auto-makers, as we've done for many years now, could be the best bet we have towards properly restructuring their businesses and bringing forward a new American/Atlasian auto industry which is essential in more than a few ways. Simply, this has nothing to do with unions, just bad business decisions from the past and incompetent management. Stop with the knee-jerk union-bashing.

Of course, you and your RPP friend in the office of Game Moderator can continue to try and undermine anything the Senate does because he, through a partisan prism, doesn't like it. But let's stop acting like I'm ignoring the consequences of my actions and that I don't know what the hell I'm doing, hm?

[I left.]

I have some major problems with parts of this legislation, but I hope we will all be able to find some middle ground.

[MasterJedi]

I support the changes that NC Yankee has suggested. Otherwise it's a no go.

[Vepres]

Sorry, I'll vote against the bill should any effort to remove the 'Buy Atlasian' provision be removed. We need something to stimulate the manufacturing sector which has been on the decline for decades, and outsourcing most, if not all, of our materials isn't an Atlasian stimulus, it's a Chinese stimulus. As for 3 and 4, I'm sure we can work together on something there.

However, I do think that temporary nationalization of the Atlasian auto companies is the best course of action, for a variety of reasons.

Most of those jobs aren't coming back, no matter what you do. When you can pay a Chinese man far less to do the same job. Interestingly, the Japanese and Korean car companies have many factories in the south, where there aren't strong unions. If you remove the UAW union's power, then the American companies can build plants in cheaper areas.

[DownWithTheLeft]

I don't know if Marokai and Lief are open to that, but I am open to put Canada and European Union in the ''Buy Atlasian'' clause.

How the hell would it be "Buy Atlasian" if Canada and the EU were included?  Hell let's just throw in China, Japan, and the Sudan have a ball

[Senator MaxQue]

I don't know if Marokai and Lief are open to that, but I am open to put Canada and European Union in the ''Buy Atlasian'' clause.

How the hell would it be "Buy Atlasian" if Canada and the EU were included?  Hell let's just throw in China, Japan, and the Sudan have a ball

Well, ''Buy in respectful countries'' then. Including our main trade parnter could be a good idea. Especially than there is no much difference between north and south of the border.

[President Marokai]

Sorry, I'll vote against the bill should any effort to remove the 'Buy Atlasian' provision be removed. We need something to stimulate the manufacturing sector which has been on the decline for decades, and outsourcing most, if not all, of our materials isn't an Atlasian stimulus, it's a Chinese stimulus. As for 3 and 4, I'm sure we can work together on something there.

However, I do think that temporary nationalization of the Atlasian auto companies is the best course of action, for a variety of reasons.

Most of those jobs aren't coming back, no matter what you do. When you can pay a Chinese man far less to do the same job. Interestingly, the Japanese and Korean car companies have many factories in the south, where there aren't strong unions. If you remove the UAW union's power, then the American companies can build plants in cheaper areas.

Does no one read what I post?

[President Marokai]

I don't know if Marokai and Lief are open to that, but I am open to put Canada and European Union in the ''Buy Atlasian'' clause.

How the hell would it be "Buy Atlasian" if Canada and the EU were included?  Hell let's just throw in China, Japan, and the Sudan have a ball

Well, there's an argument to be made that an exception for Canada could be sensible enough. There are many Atlasian/American workers working in Canada and we often share the same businesses due to our proximity to each other.

[Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Okay Marokai,

1. The reason I said you ignored the consequences of your actions was because 3 times last night you in fact did, on this, the LGBT Free Trade Act Amendment, and the Credit card interest rate caps. It seems you prefer feel-good legislation that looks good on paper, but is counterproductive to the desired goals.

2. How do you "know" what level of protectionism foreign countries will accept before they respond in kind? Some of these countries have political leaders that are in a very unstable position and may very well respond to populist demands for greater protectionism over the slightest of provocations. Atlasia should take the lead in shirking of these irresponsible populist demands, and not succumb to it.

3. I will agree that the trade deficit is a definate problem, however, right now, exports are falling off a cliff, and so is domestic demand as well. So lets say a wave of Protectionist policies across the world are established, the effect on Manufacturing would be the exact opposite of what you expect this bill to do.  Of course, you have a history of counterproductive bills and proposals, that hurt the very people you try to help. Last night this was proven on two different issues. You are playing a very dangerous game and you are gambling with the jobs of millions of Atlasians.

4. I understand the need for self sufficiency, but protectionism is not the way to do it, finding ways to help them compete is.

5. I never called for doing nothing to help the Big three automakers. I said we should work to help them within the market place. What about the Foreign manufacturers in the South, how are they going to compete with three gov't owned companies that can run up whatever debts they want to on taxpayer dime, and have a Gov't giving them other unfair advantages as well(Over other companies that employ Atlasians). Management has been incompetant, I don't deny thats the cause of most of the problems. I also have no problems with unions in general, indeed I think unions can be very beneficial to keep management in check at times. However I feel the in the past the UAW among others have been more concerned with there political influence then the needs of there members.

6. I never called for taking a hatchet to the corporate tax rate. What I would like to see done is the removal of most deductions and exemptions and lower the overall rate to 25% in increments over a few years. This will simplify a complex tax code, bring down the overall rates to competative levels, encourage business activity and reduce unfair advanteages giving to several companies through the influence of lobbyist. I said that this could rate, and I am willing to make some kind of deal to get this done.

7. What did you expect from someone like Brandon? I don't think he is acting out of partisanship, but out of wisdom that has come with age. Its not like he created the recession just to hurt Lief, Ebowed first began reporting it last year. I think he two can see that your policies are very counterproductive as well, and I think he is being very realistic in reporting the results. I am sure everyone will be unhappy with the news, he will be reporting, eventually myself included. But this is a game and you can't always be the winner.

[President Marokai]

1. The reason I said you ignored the consequences of your actions was because 3 times last night you in fact did, on this, the LGBT Free Trade Act Amendment, and the Credit card interest rate caps. It seems you prefer feel-good legislation that looks good on paper, but is counterproductive to the desired goals.

Perhaps the fact that I am gay makes me biased, but I don't think building up a society that criminalizes a minority is a bright idea. It's the same thing as levying sanctions on another country, or condemning a slave trade. Who cares if a trade agreement with Morocco or some other country like that is revoked? I think our workers will muddle through the hundreds of jobs lost from that.

As for interest rate caps, they're essential because they prevent abuse from companies who take advantage of those who A) Didn't understand the fine print or B) The companies were purposely deceptive in their fine print. It cap interest rates at TWENTY percent. You're making it out like we capped the rates at FIVE. Stop being a drama queen.

3. I will agree that the trade deficit is a definate problem, however, right now, exports are falling off a cliff, and so is domestic demand as well. So lets say a wave of Protectionist policies across the world are established, the effect on Manufacturing would be the exact opposite of what you expect this bill to do.  Of course, you have a history of counterproductive bills and proposals, that hurt the very people you try to help. Last night this was proven on two different issues. You are playing a very dangerous game and you are gambling with the jobs of millions of Atlasians.

4. I understand the need for self sufficiency, but protectionism is not the way to do it, finding ways to help them compete is.

I'm beginning to think there's something seriously wrong with you. There are no massive wave of protectionist policies here and I haven't a clue why you keep pedaling that nonsense. It simply mandates 66% of stimulus projects have materials obtained and manufactured in Atlasia and by Atlasian businesses. There's still a significant portion of projects that can be funded by foreign sources, and it doesn't affect anything outside of the stimulus projects.

6. I never called for taking a hatchet to the corporate tax rate. What I would like to see done is the removal of most deductions and exemptions and lower the overall rate to 25% in increments over a few years. This will simplify a complex tax code, bring down the overall rates to competative levels, encourage business activity and reduce unfair advanteages giving to several companies through the influence of lobbyist. I said that this could rate, and I am willing to make some kind of deal to get this done.

I honestly think sometimes I must speak a foreign language when I respond to people.

1. The corporate tax rate is much higher than 25%. Reducing it to that number is a heavy slash comparable to "taking a hatchet to it."

2. Cuts in the corporate tax rate overall are not conducive to economic growth nor swift economic stimulus. (Quite the opposite.) Please stop with the nonsense that cutting taxes will result in a boom, we've heard that for decades.

3. Any cuts should be breaks to smaller businesses, not broad severe cuts. Anything outside of that is incredibly irresponsible.

[Fmr. Emperor PiT]

     Since the thread has been opened for debating this bill, how about you two take it there?

[Senator North Carolina Yankee]

     Since the thread has been opened for debating this bill, how about you two take it there?

I beleive I already did.

[Fmr. Emperor PiT]

     Since the thread has been opened for debating this bill, how about you two take it there?

I beleive I already did.

     Fair enough, though it looked like you two would continue debating it in here.

[Vepres]

Sorry, I'll vote against the bill should any effort to remove the 'Buy Atlasian' provision be removed. We need something to stimulate the manufacturing sector which has been on the decline for decades, and outsourcing most, if not all, of our materials isn't an Atlasian stimulus, it's a Chinese stimulus. As for 3 and 4, I'm sure we can work together on something there.

However, I do think that temporary nationalization of the Atlasian auto companies is the best course of action, for a variety of reasons.

Most of those jobs aren't coming back, no matter what you do. When you can pay a Chinese man far less to do the same job. Interestingly, the Japanese and Korean car companies have many factories in the south, where there aren't strong unions. If you remove the UAW union's power, then the American companies can build plants in cheaper areas.

Does no one read what I post?

I didn't at the time. However, you may be right.

By the way, why should Ford be bought by the government? Lately they've been a very competent company, with many cars rivaling Japanese cars in quality. They have paid off many of their debts as well.

[President Marokai]

Sorry, I'll vote against the bill should any effort to remove the 'Buy Atlasian' provision be removed. We need something to stimulate the manufacturing sector which has been on the decline for decades, and outsourcing most, if not all, of our materials isn't an Atlasian stimulus, it's a Chinese stimulus. As for 3 and 4, I'm sure we can work together on something there.

However, I do think that temporary nationalization of the Atlasian auto companies is the best course of action, for a variety of reasons.

Most of those jobs aren't coming back, no matter what you do. When you can pay a Chinese man far less to do the same job. Interestingly, the Japanese and Korean car companies have many factories in the south, where there aren't strong unions. If you remove the UAW union's power, then the American companies can build plants in cheaper areas.

Does no one read what I post?

I didn't at the time. However, you may be right.

By the way, why should Ford be bought by the government? Lately they've been a very competent company, with many cars rivaling Japanese cars in quality. They have paid off many of their debts as well.

I'm fine with just nationalizing GM, if people could accept that.

[Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Sorry, I'll vote against the bill should any effort to remove the 'Buy Atlasian' provision be removed. We need something to stimulate the manufacturing sector which has been on the decline for decades, and outsourcing most, if not all, of our materials isn't an Atlasian stimulus, it's a Chinese stimulus. As for 3 and 4, I'm sure we can work together on something there.

However, I do think that temporary nationalization of the Atlasian auto companies is the best course of action, for a variety of reasons.

Most of those jobs aren't coming back, no matter what you do. When you can pay a Chinese man far less to do the same job. Interestingly, the Japanese and Korean car companies have many factories in the south, where there aren't strong unions. If you remove the UAW union's power, then the American companies can build plants in cheaper areas.

Does no one read what I post?

I didn't at the time. However, you may be right.

By the way, why should Ford be bought by the government? Lately they've been a very competent company, with many cars rivaling Japanese cars in quality. They have paid off many of their debts as well.

I'm fine with just nationalizing GM, if people could accept that.

What about Chrysler?

[Purple State]

Enumerated Powers Resolution
Article III, Section 2, Clause 6 shall be inserted into the OSPR to read: Any Senator introducing legislation into the Senate floor shall cite the section in the Constitution that allows this legislation in the legislation.

As per my campaign pomise, I introduce this on behalf of Fmr Senator and current Lt Gov. South Park Conservative.

Don't sound too happy about it Yank.

[Peter]

LGB Dignity Act.

All self described reperative therapy, psychological therapy, self help and 'ex gay' institutions, associations and ministries with the intent to subdue, erase, reform, negatively influence or attempt to change an individuals sexual orientation are hereby outlawed.

I do not think this can be justified under any federal power, moreover, I believe it could violate the free speech and free exercise of religion clauses as well.

[Purple State]

LGB Dignity Act.

All self described reperative therapy, psychological therapy, self help and 'ex gay' institutions, associations and ministries with the intent to subdue, erase, reform, negatively influence or attempt to change an individuals sexual orientation are hereby outlawed.

I do not think this can be justified under any federal power, moreover, I believe it could violate the free speech and free exercise of religion clauses as well.

I agree. So long as these institutions aren't compelling people to attend against their will, which would be illegal, we can't outright ban these.

[SPC]

Enumerated Powers Resolution
Article III, Section 2, Clause 6 shall be inserted into the OSPR to read: Any Senator introducing legislation into the Senate floor shall cite the section in the Constitution that allows this legislation in the legislation.

As per my campaign pomise, I introduce this on behalf of Fmr Senator and current Lt Gov. South Park Conservative.

Thank you.

[Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Enumerated Powers Resolution
Article III, Section 2, Clause 6 shall be inserted into the OSPR to read: Any Senator introducing legislation into the Senate floor shall cite the section in the Constitution that allows this legislation in the legislation.

As per my campaign pomise, I introduce this on behalf of Fmr Senator and current Lt Gov. South Park Conservative.

Don't sound too happy about it Yank.

I am not.

[Purple State]

Atlasia-EU Free Trade Bill
1. No tariffs, customs, or restrictions on movement of goods, except those that have been outlawed by the destination or interim nation, shall exist between the Republic of Atlasia and the Eurpean Union

2. The President and other officers of the Atlasian Government shall take such actions as may be necessary to implement the provisions of this bill.

Atlasia-Turkey Free Trade Bill
1. No tariffs, customs, or restrictions on movement of goods, except those that have been outlawed by the destination or interim nation, shall exist between the Republic of Atlasia and Turkey.

2. The President and other officers of the Atlasian Government shall take such actions as may be necessary to implement the provisions of this bill.

Summarized: MasterJedi gives a hearty welcome back to afleitch.

[MasterJedi]

I want to introduce Free Trade bills for Indonesia, Taiwan and the UAE. But seperatly or all as one? I'm asking Senators opinions on this.