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Author Topic: Senate Protest and Analysis Thread  (Read 239120 times)
Franzl
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« Reply #975 on: July 11, 2009, 04:31:06 am »
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I have some major problems with parts of this legislation, but I hope we will all be able to find some middle ground.
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MasterJedi
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« Reply #976 on: July 11, 2009, 09:00:11 am »

I support the changes that NC Yankee has suggested. Otherwise it's a no go.
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« Reply #977 on: July 11, 2009, 11:03:50 am »
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Sorry, I'll vote against the bill should any effort to remove the 'Buy Atlasian' provision be removed. We need something to stimulate the manufacturing sector which has been on the decline for decades, and outsourcing most, if not all, of our materials isn't an Atlasian stimulus, it's a Chinese stimulus. As for 3 and 4, I'm sure we can work together on something there.

However, I do think that temporary nationalization of the Atlasian auto companies is the best course of action, for a variety of reasons.

Most of those jobs aren't coming back, no matter what you do. When you can pay a Chinese man far less to do the same job. Interestingly, the Japanese and Korean car companies have many factories in the south, where there aren't strong unions. If you remove the UAW union's power, then the American companies can build plants in cheaper areas.
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DownWithTheLeft
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« Reply #978 on: July 11, 2009, 11:52:57 am »
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I don't know if Marokai and Lief are open to that, but I am open to put Canada and European Union in the ''Buy Atlasian'' clause.
How the hell would it be "Buy Atlasian" if Canada and the EU were included?  Hell let's just throw in China, Japan, and the Sudan have a ball
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« Reply #979 on: July 11, 2009, 03:10:33 pm »
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I don't know if Marokai and Lief are open to that, but I am open to put Canada and European Union in the ''Buy Atlasian'' clause.
How the hell would it be "Buy Atlasian" if Canada and the EU were included?  Hell let's just throw in China, Japan, and the Sudan have a ball

Well, ''Buy in respectful countries'' then. Including our main trade parnter could be a good idea. Especially than there is no much difference between north and south of the border.
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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #980 on: July 11, 2009, 03:32:26 pm »
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Sorry, I'll vote against the bill should any effort to remove the 'Buy Atlasian' provision be removed. We need something to stimulate the manufacturing sector which has been on the decline for decades, and outsourcing most, if not all, of our materials isn't an Atlasian stimulus, it's a Chinese stimulus. As for 3 and 4, I'm sure we can work together on something there.

However, I do think that temporary nationalization of the Atlasian auto companies is the best course of action, for a variety of reasons.

Most of those jobs aren't coming back, no matter what you do. When you can pay a Chinese man far less to do the same job. Interestingly, the Japanese and Korean car companies have many factories in the south, where there aren't strong unions. If you remove the UAW union's power, then the American companies can build plants in cheaper areas.

Does no one read what I post?
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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #981 on: July 11, 2009, 03:33:27 pm »
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I don't know if Marokai and Lief are open to that, but I am open to put Canada and European Union in the ''Buy Atlasian'' clause.
How the hell would it be "Buy Atlasian" if Canada and the EU were included?  Hell let's just throw in China, Japan, and the Sudan have a ball

Well, there's an argument to be made that an exception for Canada could be sensible enough. There are many Atlasian/American workers working in Canada and we often share the same businesses due to our proximity to each other.
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Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #982 on: July 11, 2009, 04:48:43 pm »
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Okay Marokai,

1. The reason I said you ignored the consequences of your actions was because 3 times last night you in fact did, on this, the LGBT Free Trade Act Amendment, and the Credit card interest rate caps. It seems you prefer feel-good legislation that looks good on paper, but is counterproductive to the desired goals.

2. How do you "know" what level of protectionism foreign countries will accept before they respond in kind? Some of these countries have political leaders that are in a very unstable position and may very well respond to populist demands for greater protectionism over the slightest of provocations. Atlasia should take the lead in shirking of these irresponsible populist demands, and not succumb to it.

3. I will agree that the trade deficit is a definate problem, however, right now, exports are falling off a cliff, and so is domestic demand as well. So lets say a wave of Protectionist policies across the world are established, the effect on Manufacturing would be the exact opposite of what you expect this bill to do.  Of course, you have a history of counterproductive bills and proposals, that hurt the very people you try to help. Last night this was proven on two different issues. You are playing a very dangerous game and you are gambling with the jobs of millions of Atlasians.

4. I understand the need for self sufficiency, but protectionism is not the way to do it, finding ways to help them compete is.

5. I never called for doing nothing to help the Big three automakers. I said we should work to help them within the market place. What about the Foreign manufacturers in the South, how are they going to compete with three gov't owned companies that can run up whatever debts they want to on taxpayer dime, and have a Gov't giving them other unfair advantages as well(Over other companies that employ Atlasians). Management has been incompetant, I don't deny thats the cause of most of the problems. I also have no problems with unions in general, indeed I think unions can be very beneficial to keep management in check at times. However I feel the in the past the UAW among others have been more concerned with there political influence then the needs of there members.

6. I never called for taking a hatchet to the corporate tax rate. What I would like to see done is the removal of most deductions and exemptions and lower the overall rate to 25% in increments over a few years. This will simplify a complex tax code, bring down the overall rates to competative levels, encourage business activity and reduce unfair advanteages giving to several companies through the influence of lobbyist. I said that this could rate, and I am willing to make some kind of deal to get this done.

7. What did you expect from someone like Brandon? I don't think he is acting out of partisanship, but out of wisdom that has come with age. Its not like he created the recession just to hurt Lief, Ebowed first began reporting it last year. I think he two can see that your policies are very counterproductive as well, and I think he is being very realistic in reporting the results. I am sure everyone will be unhappy with the news, he will be reporting, eventually myself included. But this is a game and you can't always be the winner.
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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #983 on: July 11, 2009, 04:59:59 pm »
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Quote
1. The reason I said you ignored the consequences of your actions was because 3 times last night you in fact did, on this, the LGBT Free Trade Act Amendment, and the Credit card interest rate caps. It seems you prefer feel-good legislation that looks good on paper, but is counterproductive to the desired goals.

Perhaps the fact that I am gay makes me biased, but I don't think building up a society that criminalizes a minority is a bright idea. It's the same thing as levying sanctions on another country, or condemning a slave trade. Who cares if a trade agreement with Morocco or some other country like that is revoked? I think our workers will muddle through the hundreds of jobs lost from that. Roll Eyes

As for interest rate caps, they're essential because they prevent abuse from companies who take advantage of those who A) Didn't understand the fine print or B) The companies were purposely deceptive in their fine print. It cap interest rates at TWENTY percent. You're making it out like we capped the rates at FIVE. Stop being a drama queen.

Quote
3. I will agree that the trade deficit is a definate problem, however, right now, exports are falling off a cliff, and so is domestic demand as well. So lets say a wave of Protectionist policies across the world are established, the effect on Manufacturing would be the exact opposite of what you expect this bill to do.  Of course, you have a history of counterproductive bills and proposals, that hurt the very people you try to help. Last night this was proven on two different issues. You are playing a very dangerous game and you are gambling with the jobs of millions of Atlasians.

4. I understand the need for self sufficiency, but protectionism is not the way to do it, finding ways to help them compete is.

I'm beginning to think there's something seriously wrong with you. There are no massive wave of protectionist policies here and I haven't a clue why you keep pedaling that nonsense. It simply mandates 66% of stimulus projects have materials obtained and manufactured in Atlasia and by Atlasian businesses. There's still a significant portion of projects that can be funded by foreign sources, and it doesn't affect anything outside of the stimulus projects.

Quote
6. I never called for taking a hatchet to the corporate tax rate. What I would like to see done is the removal of most deductions and exemptions and lower the overall rate to 25% in increments over a few years. This will simplify a complex tax code, bring down the overall rates to competative levels, encourage business activity and reduce unfair advanteages giving to several companies through the influence of lobbyist. I said that this could rate, and I am willing to make some kind of deal to get this done.

I honestly think sometimes I must speak a foreign language when I respond to people.

1. The corporate tax rate is much higher than 25%. Reducing it to that number is a heavy slash comparable to "taking a hatchet to it."

2. Cuts in the corporate tax rate overall are not conducive to economic growth nor swift economic stimulus. (Quite the opposite.) Please stop with the nonsense that cutting taxes will result in a boom, we've heard that for decades.

3. Any cuts should be breaks to smaller businesses, not broad severe cuts. Anything outside of that is incredibly irresponsible.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2009, 05:06:52 pm by Senator Marokai Blue »Logged


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Senator PiT
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« Reply #984 on: July 11, 2009, 05:11:52 pm »
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     Since the thread has been opened for debating this bill, how about you two take it there?
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Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #985 on: July 11, 2009, 05:54:11 pm »
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     Since the thread has been opened for debating this bill, how about you two take it there?

I beleive I already did.

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Senator PiT
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« Reply #986 on: July 11, 2009, 06:02:45 pm »
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     Since the thread has been opened for debating this bill, how about you two take it there?

I beleive I already did.

     Fair enough, though it looked like you two would continue debating it in here.
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Vepres
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« Reply #987 on: July 11, 2009, 08:46:32 pm »
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Sorry, I'll vote against the bill should any effort to remove the 'Buy Atlasian' provision be removed. We need something to stimulate the manufacturing sector which has been on the decline for decades, and outsourcing most, if not all, of our materials isn't an Atlasian stimulus, it's a Chinese stimulus. As for 3 and 4, I'm sure we can work together on something there.

However, I do think that temporary nationalization of the Atlasian auto companies is the best course of action, for a variety of reasons.

Most of those jobs aren't coming back, no matter what you do. When you can pay a Chinese man far less to do the same job. Interestingly, the Japanese and Korean car companies have many factories in the south, where there aren't strong unions. If you remove the UAW union's power, then the American companies can build plants in cheaper areas.

Does no one read what I post?

I didn't at the time. Tongue However, you may be right.

By the way, why should Ford be bought by the government? Lately they've been a very competent company, with many cars rivaling Japanese cars in quality. They have paid off many of their debts as well.
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Marokai Besieged
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« Reply #988 on: July 11, 2009, 09:03:25 pm »
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Sorry, I'll vote against the bill should any effort to remove the 'Buy Atlasian' provision be removed. We need something to stimulate the manufacturing sector which has been on the decline for decades, and outsourcing most, if not all, of our materials isn't an Atlasian stimulus, it's a Chinese stimulus. As for 3 and 4, I'm sure we can work together on something there.

However, I do think that temporary nationalization of the Atlasian auto companies is the best course of action, for a variety of reasons.

Most of those jobs aren't coming back, no matter what you do. When you can pay a Chinese man far less to do the same job. Interestingly, the Japanese and Korean car companies have many factories in the south, where there aren't strong unions. If you remove the UAW union's power, then the American companies can build plants in cheaper areas.

Does no one read what I post?

I didn't at the time. Tongue However, you may be right.

By the way, why should Ford be bought by the government? Lately they've been a very competent company, with many cars rivaling Japanese cars in quality. They have paid off many of their debts as well.

I'm fine with just nationalizing GM, if people could accept that.
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Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #989 on: July 11, 2009, 09:05:16 pm »
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Sorry, I'll vote against the bill should any effort to remove the 'Buy Atlasian' provision be removed. We need something to stimulate the manufacturing sector which has been on the decline for decades, and outsourcing most, if not all, of our materials isn't an Atlasian stimulus, it's a Chinese stimulus. As for 3 and 4, I'm sure we can work together on something there.

However, I do think that temporary nationalization of the Atlasian auto companies is the best course of action, for a variety of reasons.

Most of those jobs aren't coming back, no matter what you do. When you can pay a Chinese man far less to do the same job. Interestingly, the Japanese and Korean car companies have many factories in the south, where there aren't strong unions. If you remove the UAW union's power, then the American companies can build plants in cheaper areas.

Does no one read what I post?

I didn't at the time. Tongue However, you may be right.

By the way, why should Ford be bought by the government? Lately they've been a very competent company, with many cars rivaling Japanese cars in quality. They have paid off many of their debts as well.

I'm fine with just nationalizing GM, if people could accept that.

What about Chrysler?
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Purple State
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« Reply #990 on: July 21, 2009, 05:30:39 pm »
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Enumerated Powers Resolution
Article III, Section 2, Clause 6 shall be inserted into the OSPR to read: Any Senator introducing legislation into the Senate floor shall cite the section in the Constitution that allows this legislation in the legislation.

As per my campaign pomise, I introduce this on behalf of Fmr Senator and current Lt Gov. South Park Conservative.

Don't sound too happy about it Yank. Wink
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« Reply #991 on: July 21, 2009, 05:34:43 pm »
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LGB Dignity Act.

All self described reperative therapy, psychological therapy, self help and 'ex gay' institutions, associations and ministries with the intent to subdue, erase, reform, negatively influence or attempt to change an individuals sexual orientation are hereby outlawed.
I do not think this can be justified under any federal power, moreover, I believe it could violate the free speech and free exercise of religion clauses as well.
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Purple State
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« Reply #992 on: July 21, 2009, 05:36:20 pm »
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LGB Dignity Act.

All self described reperative therapy, psychological therapy, self help and 'ex gay' institutions, associations and ministries with the intent to subdue, erase, reform, negatively influence or attempt to change an individuals sexual orientation are hereby outlawed.
I do not think this can be justified under any federal power, moreover, I believe it could violate the free speech and free exercise of religion clauses as well.

I agree. So long as these institutions aren't compelling people to attend against their will, which would be illegal, we can't outright ban these.
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SPC
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« Reply #993 on: July 21, 2009, 05:41:18 pm »
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Enumerated Powers Resolution
Article III, Section 2, Clause 6 shall be inserted into the OSPR to read: Any Senator introducing legislation into the Senate floor shall cite the section in the Constitution that allows this legislation in the legislation.

As per my campaign pomise, I introduce this on behalf of Fmr Senator and current Lt Gov. South Park Conservative.

Thank you. Cheesy
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Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #994 on: July 21, 2009, 05:42:27 pm »
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Enumerated Powers Resolution
Article III, Section 2, Clause 6 shall be inserted into the OSPR to read: Any Senator introducing legislation into the Senate floor shall cite the section in the Constitution that allows this legislation in the legislation.

As per my campaign pomise, I introduce this on behalf of Fmr Senator and current Lt Gov. South Park Conservative.

Don't sound too happy about it Yank. Wink

I am not.
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Purple State
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« Reply #995 on: July 21, 2009, 09:42:11 pm »
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Atlasia-EU Free Trade Bill
1. No tariffs, customs, or restrictions on movement of goods, except those that have been outlawed by the destination or interim nation, shall exist between the Republic of Atlasia and the Eurpean Union

2. The President and other officers of the Atlasian Government shall take such actions as may be necessary to implement the provisions of this bill.


Atlasia-Turkey Free Trade Bill
1. No tariffs, customs, or restrictions on movement of goods, except those that have been outlawed by the destination or interim nation, shall exist between the Republic of Atlasia and Turkey.

2. The President and other officers of the Atlasian Government shall take such actions as may be necessary to implement the provisions of this bill.


Summarized: MasterJedi gives a hearty welcome back to afleitch.
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MasterJedi
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« Reply #996 on: August 15, 2009, 07:02:26 pm »

I want to introduce Free Trade bills for Indonesia, Taiwan and the UAE. But seperatly or all as one? I'm asking Senators opinions on this.
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Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #997 on: August 15, 2009, 07:19:20 pm »
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I want to introduce Free Trade bills for Indonesia, Taiwan and the UAE. But seperatly or all as one? I'm asking Senators opinions on this.

No fair, I was going to do Taiwan. Angry
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MasterJedi
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« Reply #998 on: August 15, 2009, 07:20:22 pm »

I want to introduce Free Trade bills for Indonesia, Taiwan and the UAE. But seperatly or all as one? I'm asking Senators opinions on this.

No fair, I was going to do Taiwan. Angry

You snooze, you lose! Tongue
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Хahar
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« Reply #999 on: August 15, 2009, 10:37:52 pm »
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The UAE is an absolute monarchy, wtf?
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The idea of parodying the preceding Atlasian's postings is laughable, of course, but not for reasons one might expect.
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