Senate Protest and Analysis Thread
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  Senate Protest and Analysis Thread
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Author Topic: Senate Protest and Analysis Thread  (Read 303975 times)
bore
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« Reply #2150 on: August 04, 2014, 11:12:21 PM »

Lumine and TNF clearly need to take this outside.
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TNF
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« Reply #2151 on: August 04, 2014, 11:13:07 PM »

The bourgeoisie should live in constant fear. After all, the Proletariat already do (fear of homelessness, unemployment, not having access to medical care), so why not level the playing field?
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GAworth
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« Reply #2152 on: August 04, 2014, 11:21:34 PM »

So wait the bill just calls for them to be built, but never used?
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TNF
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« Reply #2153 on: August 04, 2014, 11:22:08 PM »

So wait the bill just calls for them to be built, but never used?

Yep. It's a jobs program!
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GAworth
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« Reply #2154 on: August 04, 2014, 11:24:53 PM »

So wait the bill just calls for them to be built, but never used?

Yep. It's a jobs program!
Interesting.
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Dr. Cynic
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« Reply #2155 on: August 05, 2014, 12:50:39 AM »


I'd rather a jobs program go toward building houses, fixing infrastructure and providing a better life for people... It just seems kind of.... Weird.
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Mechaman
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« Reply #2156 on: August 05, 2014, 06:56:04 AM »

I must protest Senator TNF's new bill.  It doesn't go near far enough.

Tiocfaidh įr lį!
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H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY
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« Reply #2157 on: August 08, 2014, 07:22:29 PM »

Doesn't the Senate already have a presiding officer (the Vice President)?
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Dr. Cynic
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« Reply #2158 on: August 09, 2014, 03:42:54 AM »

Doesn't the Senate already have a presiding officer (the Vice President)?

Yes, there's no need to create the extra office. Unless of course the Vice Presidency were eliminated altogether, which I don't see happening.
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windjammer
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« Reply #2159 on: August 09, 2014, 04:25:47 AM »

With these reforms, I would have no dutie at all.

If really people don't like the office of the VP, I prefer much more the abolition of this office than a basically useless office.

The VP is the president of the senate, that's the constitution that says that. The VP isn't a member of the executive branch, he's a member of the legislative branch, (he's the president of the senate), the VP has no power except his tie breaking vote and has to respect the rules. The VP is clearly independent from the president.

So yes, I prefer the VP to be eliminated than being transformed into an inactive office. Because these new rules basically strip every duty the VP could have.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #2160 on: August 09, 2014, 10:57:08 AM »

Like I said in the thread, the Constitution makes the VP President of the Senate not the rules.

I have issues with changing to the term Speaker as the PPT should be a merit based not a political based election.
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bore
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« Reply #2161 on: August 09, 2014, 11:01:55 AM »

Like I said in the thread, the Constitution makes the VP President of the Senate not the rules.

I have issues with changing to the term Speaker as the PPT should be a merit based not a political based election.

Speaker is not an inherently political term. For instance, the speaker in britain is non partisan.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #2162 on: August 09, 2014, 11:05:20 AM »

Like I said in the thread, the Constitution makes the VP President of the Senate not the rules.

I have issues with changing to the term Speaker as the PPT should be a merit based not a political based election.

Speaker is not an inherently political term. For instance, the speaker in britain is non partisan.

As long as everyone is clear then that such is the British version of such and that is the nature of the office.
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windjammer
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« Reply #2163 on: August 09, 2014, 01:03:11 PM »

This proposal doesn't affect the VP's status as President of the Senate. I would not have written these rules without carefully rechecking every relevant clause of the Constitution.

To clarify, Speaker is only meant to denote the office responsible for administering the Senate. The intent is not to change the nature of the Senate's administration.

But this is killing the role of my office Averroes...

Have I done something bad when I administered this senate?
And yes, the VP isn't a member of the executive, all of his duties are legilsative: president of the senate, tie breaking vote.
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windjammer
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« Reply #2164 on: August 09, 2014, 01:16:43 PM »

And again, I would prefer you simply abolish this office instead of simply stripping every duty this office could have in the future.

I know this isn't made to be personal, but really, retiring every duty I could have,...
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windjammer
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« Reply #2165 on: August 09, 2014, 01:22:51 PM »

This proposal doesn't affect the VP's status as President of the Senate. I would not have written these rules without carefully rechecking every relevant clause of the Constitution.

To clarify, Speaker is only meant to denote the office responsible for administering the Senate. The intent is not to change the nature of the Senate's administration.
And Averroes, it affects my statute of "President of the Senate", because I would have basically no duty in the senate.
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windjammer
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« Reply #2166 on: August 09, 2014, 02:07:47 PM »

First, let me address the constitutional objection, because it's the most important point at stake here.

The Constitution has two clauses that directly pertain to this debate:

First:
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This corresponds almost verbatim with the text of the United States Constitution: "The Vice President of the United States shall be President of the Senate, but shall have no Vote, unless they be equally divided. The Senate shall chuse their other Officers, and also a President pro tempore, in the Absence of the Vice President, or when he shall exercise the Office of President of the United States."

Clearly the intent is to imitate the arrangement that prevails in the United States. In the modern Senate, the Vice President is limited to his role as tie-breaker and may not even participate in Senate debate. In fact, if you care to read the actual Senate's standing rules, they assign no additional responsibilities to the Vice President.

Note that the Constitution does not use the verb 'preside' in reference to the Vice President at any point. If you want to appeal to etymology, consider that the Latin root of 'president' is praesident which means ‘sitting before.’

Second:

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Notice that the Vice President is not mentioned again in the clause that establishes how Senate procedure is set - Why would this be so if the Senate is obliged to grant him a procedural role? If a mandatory procedural role for the Vice President is implied, why is there no guide as to how extensive this role must be?

I hope you will still adress my other points though.
If I have nothing to do, why not simply abolishing my office and replacing that by a 11th senator?

Clearly, an office that has no duty is likely to die one day.
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Fmr. Pres. Duke
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« Reply #2167 on: August 09, 2014, 02:25:32 PM »

The VP as an office has been around since the beginning of this game and prior to February 2013, literally did nothing unless the PPT was missing or the President was gone. That was the job of the VP, not to run the Senate.

The VP is there to break ties and stand in for the President when they go missing. Those are duties, so the argument that not allowing the VP to control the Senate renders the office useless is invalid.

I am and was fine with how the Senate administered itself before. The VP controls a few slots close to the executive branch and the PPT controls all the rest. That's logical, that makes sense.

Windjammer, these rule changes are not meant as personal attacks against you or against your job in office, so I wish you wouldn't feel as if any of us are attacking you. It just goes to my basic belief that each branch of government should be self-governing and not subject to encroachment by other branches.
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windjammer
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« Reply #2168 on: August 09, 2014, 02:28:25 PM »

I know this isn't made against me.

But I cannot interpret in an another way than a defiance towards the job I have been doing, that's all.

And yes, I know there isn't a bad intention behind Averroes.

I'm just desperate.
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windjammer
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« Reply #2169 on: August 09, 2014, 02:39:32 PM »

I know this isn't made against me.

But I cannot interpret in an another way than a defiance towards the job I have been doing, that's all.

And yes, I know there isn't a bad intention behind Averroes.

I'm just desperate.

Actually, my proposed rules would allow the Vice President to serve as the Senate's presiding officer under the current circumstances:

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Oh please Averroes,
This is absolutely nothing.
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windjammer
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« Reply #2170 on: August 09, 2014, 02:40:54 PM »

But I hope that, even on your phone, you will still be able to describe the current job I was doing...
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windjammer
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« Reply #2171 on: August 09, 2014, 02:43:39 PM »

But I hope that, even on your phone, you will still be able to describe the current job I was doing...

What are you asking?

Whi this sudden change? Is it because I have made something bad as VP???
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windjammer
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« Reply #2172 on: August 09, 2014, 02:58:48 PM »

And how would you rate my performance???
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HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #2173 on: August 09, 2014, 03:14:10 PM »

This is absurd.
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windjammer
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« Reply #2174 on: August 09, 2014, 03:15:27 PM »


Huh
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