Visiting Mecca and Medina

[politicus]

Thinking of visiting Saudi-Arabia. I have a friend, who is a Catholic priest in UAE, who has invited me (I will be staying with a German couple from the congregation), and it would be a logical sidetrip.

So, I wonder whether I as a non-Muslim will be able to visit Mecca and Medina and how great the risk will be. I can see Hash has lived in Saudi-Arabia, but maybe others have as well.

Yahoo answers has this as best answer (apparently from a Saudi-woman):

"The bottom line is: officially, no you can't enter Mecca if you are a non-muslim. However, i personally took some of my non-muslim friends (i'm a Saudi woman from Jeddah btw, that's less than 40 min drive from Mecca). If you want to take the risk, try visiting with a local Saudi during off seasons (not during the months of ramadan and Hajj or just before) please wear clothes similar to those other women wear in Mecca (not necessarily the black abaya as there are many muslim women with african or indian clothes there) just make sure your arms, legs and hair are covered. avoid any problems as to not attract police attention whom of course will ask you for ID and papers (Busted!), abide by the customs and etiquette of muslims in general and don't stay more than a couple of hours, you cannot spend the night in hotels (they will ask for Your if your papers) but if your saudi friend offers you to stay at his place make sure a female relative is there too otherwise you could get in trouble (boyfriends and girlfriends cannot live together without marriage in Saudi culture as well as islamic faith). Good luck and hope you'll fall in love with our Mecca as much as we do."

I wonder how do they actually control whether you are a Muslim or not? Do they just assume that all White people are infidels? (even if there are many converts today) or would a basic knowledge of Islam, main prayers and knowing the declaration of faith (dunno the proper English term) be enough.

Also, is the above likely fake or real IYO?  

To Muslim posters: Would it be unethical? Four Muslim aquintances here all said no, but I would like to expand my "sample" (and no Arabs among them).

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

I don't know you but I'm assuming you are a WHITE white girl, who no one on earth would think was a Muslim, especially the slime ball police in Saudi Arabia.  They'd probably be asking for your passport inside of 30 seconds.

[bedstuy]

You need to get a visa specifically for the Hajj, I think.  And, I wouldn't break the law in a country that cuts people's heads off if I were you.   Then again, I might not be allowed into Saudi Arabia and I wouldn't want to visit in the first place.

[politicus]

You need to get a visa specifically for the Hajj, I think.  And, I wouldn't break the law in a country that cuts people's heads off if I were you.   Then again, I might not be allowed into Saudi Arabia and I wouldn't want to visit in the first place.

I wasn't planning on visiting during the Hajj but off season.

There is also the question of how much there is to see in Mecca after all the demolishing.

From Wiki:

"Under Saudi rule, it has been estimated that since 1985 about 95% of Mecca's historic buildings, most over a thousand years old, have been demolished.[8][50]

Historic sites of religious importance which have been destroyed by the Saudis include five of the renowned "Seven Mosques" initially built by Muhammad's daughter and four of his "greatest Companions": Masjid Abu Bakr, Masjid Salman al-Farsi, Masjid Umar ibn al-Khattab, Masjid Sayyida Fatima bint Rasulullah and Masjid Ali ibn Abu Talib.[51]

It has been reported that there are now fewer than 20 structures remaining in Mecca that date back to the time of Muhammad. Other buildings that have been destroyed include the house of Khadijah, the wife of Muhammad, demolished to make way for public lavatories; the house of Abu Bakr, Muhammad's companion, now the site of the local Hilton hotel; the house of Muhammad's grandson Ali-Oraid and the Mosque of abu-Qubais, now the location of the King's palace in Mecca; Muhammad's birthplace, demolished to make way for a library; and the Ottoman-era Ajyad Fortress, demolished for construction of the Abraj Al Bait Towers.[52]

The reason for much of the destruction of historic buildings has been for the construction of hotels, apartments, parking lots, and other infrastructure facilities for Hajj pilgrims. However, many have been destroyed without any such reason. For example, when the house of Ali-Oraid was discovered, King Fahd himself ordered that it be bulldozed lest it should become a pilgrimage site.[50]"

[politicus]

I don't know you but I'm assuming you are a WHITE white girl, who no one on earth would think was a Muslim, especially the slime ball police in Saudi Arabia.  They'd probably be asking for your passport inside of 30 seconds.

I could pass for a Bosnian. Still with the kind of close you would be wearing as a woman in this context that is not necessarily so important + thousands of converts go there (and some foreigners work in Mecca - most hotels are owned by foreigners - so its presumably a bit more complicated than just Whitey = no go.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I doubt most non-Wahhabi Muslims would care, after all it's not at all controversial for non-Catholics to visit the Vatican or non-Jews to visit the Wailing Wall. However I'd advise against going to Saudi Arabia for any reason really...

And yeah I bet you could probably just fake being Muslim and anyone can claim to be a convert, but if suspicion is aroused and you get questioned can you still keep up the facade? If the answer is no then not worth the risk.

[bedstuy]

Can someone get a visa to visit Saudi Arabia for a vacation that isn't connect to the Hajj? 

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Actually I found a reason I might want to go. There are indeed Ingress portals in Mecca, and as far as I can see they're all Enlightened. Would be nice to clean up.

I'm not surprised though. Ingress is pretty popular in some Muslim countries, especially southeast Asian ones. There was even a recent event held in Malaysia.

[Hash]

Well, to begin with, it's a real bitch to get into Saudi Arabia - I don't keep track of Saudi visa requirements, and it might have changed, but as far as I know they're very anal about who gets to get in on a 'tourist visa': unless you're visiting somebody who is a resident or a businessperson, it is probably very tough to just get in as an individual tourist who is not an organized tour. That said, the random stuff which people like to believe on Saudi Arabia being akin to North Korea as far as entrance goes is mostly mindless drivel, part and parcel of the whole package of drivel which people believe about that place. Although, that being said, Saudi visa requirements - for everybody - are certainly very unusual and bizarre. As a resident of the Kingdom, I needed an exit/re-entry visa each time I left the country for a temporary vacation and I had a final exit visa when I left the country definitely.

As for entering Makkah and Madinah as a non-Muslim, I have no personal tales to tell given that I never went (shockingly) nor do I know of any non-Muslims who did manage to get in. However, the Saudi government has separate visas for Hajj and Umrah and the whole process is very, very strictly controlled (for Muslims first and foremost) and I would guess that a general 'tourist visa' would not allow you to legally enter the cities. I also believe that there are police checkpoints before entering those cities (although I obviously can't verify this to be true, year-round); I wouldn't be able to know if there is a risk of random police checks once in the city to verify identities (there aren't any such things in the major cities - although there might be in Makkah and Madinah). Although I definitely think it's not worth the risk - regular run-of-the-mill Saudi police people are not bloodthirsty maniacs, but I still wouldn't want to be on the receiving end and/or a woman with them.

The tourism industry is very small and undeveloped in the country, so there isn't much of a draw. That being said, there are definitely some interesting places to see - Jeddah is apparently not too bad, the desert around Riyadh is great (some really breathtaking scenery around Edge of the World), Asir is apparently beautiful, there's Mada’in Saleh (although you can go to Petra for that stuff) and Riyadh has its parts.

[Indy Texas]

I guess there's no definitive way to "prove" that someone is or isn't a Muslim, though I recall hearing that when a bunch of Christians and Jews were massacred at a mall in Kenya, they weeded out and spared the Muslims by demanding people recite verses from the Quran. Some non-Muslims saved themselves by looking up Quranic verses on their phones and memorizing a few lines on the fly so they could "perform" when the men with guns got to them.

[Frodo]

Well, to begin with, it's a real bitch to get into Saudi Arabia - I don't keep track of Saudi visa requirements, and it might have changed, but as far as I know they're very anal about who gets to get in on a 'tourist visa': unless you're visiting somebody who is a resident or a businessperson, it is probably very tough to just get in as an individual tourist who is not an organized tour. That said, the random stuff which people like to believe on Saudi Arabia being akin to North Korea as far as entrance goes is mostly mindless drivel, part and parcel of the whole package of drivel which people believe about that place. Although, that being said, Saudi visa requirements - for everybody - are certainly very unusual and bizarre. As a resident of the Kingdom, I needed an exit/re-entry visa each time I left the country for a temporary vacation and I had a final exit visa when I left the country definitely.

As for entering Makkah and Madinah as a non-Muslim, I have no personal tales to tell given that I never went (shockingly) nor do I know of any non-Muslims who did manage to get in. However, the Saudi government has separate visas for Hajj and Umrah and the whole process is very, very strictly controlled (for Muslims first and foremost) and I would guess that a general 'tourist visa' would not allow you to legally enter the cities. I also believe that there are police checkpoints before entering those cities (although I obviously can't verify this to be true, year-round); I wouldn't be able to know if there is a risk of random police checks once in the city to verify identities (there aren't any such things in the major cities - although there might be in Makkah and Madinah). Although I definitely think it's not worth the risk - regular run-of-the-mill Saudi police people are not bloodthirsty maniacs, but I still wouldn't want to be on the receiving end and/or a woman with them.

The tourism industry is very small and undeveloped in the country, so there isn't much of a draw. That being said, there are definitely some interesting places to see - Jeddah is apparently not too bad, the desert around Riyadh is great (some really breathtaking scenery around Edge of the World), Asir is apparently beautiful, there's Mada’in Saleh (although you can go to Petra for that stuff) and Riyadh has its parts.

How about the countries immediately adjacent to Saudi Arabia, specifically Oman?  You've ever been there?  How does it compare with Saudi Arabia?  Would you recommend it as an alternative destination?   

[Hash]

Well, to begin with, it's a real bitch to get into Saudi Arabia - I don't keep track of Saudi visa requirements, and it might have changed, but as far as I know they're very anal about who gets to get in on a 'tourist visa': unless you're visiting somebody who is a resident or a businessperson, it is probably very tough to just get in as an individual tourist who is not an organized tour. That said, the random stuff which people like to believe on Saudi Arabia being akin to North Korea as far as entrance goes is mostly mindless drivel, part and parcel of the whole package of drivel which people believe about that place. Although, that being said, Saudi visa requirements - for everybody - are certainly very unusual and bizarre. As a resident of the Kingdom, I needed an exit/re-entry visa each time I left the country for a temporary vacation and I had a final exit visa when I left the country definitely.

As for entering Makkah and Madinah as a non-Muslim, I have no personal tales to tell given that I never went (shockingly) nor do I know of any non-Muslims who did manage to get in. However, the Saudi government has separate visas for Hajj and Umrah and the whole process is very, very strictly controlled (for Muslims first and foremost) and I would guess that a general 'tourist visa' would not allow you to legally enter the cities. I also believe that there are police checkpoints before entering those cities (although I obviously can't verify this to be true, year-round); I wouldn't be able to know if there is a risk of random police checks once in the city to verify identities (there aren't any such things in the major cities - although there might be in Makkah and Madinah). Although I definitely think it's not worth the risk - regular run-of-the-mill Saudi police people are not bloodthirsty maniacs, but I still wouldn't want to be on the receiving end and/or a woman with them.

The tourism industry is very small and undeveloped in the country, so there isn't much of a draw. That being said, there are definitely some interesting places to see - Jeddah is apparently not too bad, the desert around Riyadh is great (some really breathtaking scenery around Edge of the World), Asir is apparently beautiful, there's Mada’in Saleh (although you can go to Petra for that stuff) and Riyadh has its parts.

How about the countries immediately adjacent to Saudi Arabia, specifically Oman?  You've ever been there?  How does it compare with Saudi Arabia?  Would you recommend it as an alternative destination?   

It's been ages since I've been to Oman (Muscat) and I was young back then, but from what I can recall, it's a fairly nice place - fairly quiet, tourism is not huge, it lacks the kitsch gaudiness of Dubai/Doha (a positive, in my mind) and it's a small city nestled in valleys and nice mountains. I recall the beaches were pretty good too - certainly better than the beaches I went to in Doha. Omani culture is also distinct from Najdi culture (although Najdi culture is certainly very different from most coastal Arabian Peninsula cultures), and is quite interesting.

I went to Dubai some 12-14 years ago or something, which was just at the start of their massive sick tourism/development drive (basically only Burj al-Arab and the Jumeirah Beach Resort were the 'new' hotels back then), so I would not recognize it but I personally have no interest in going to that sick, kitschy and gaudy monument to slavery and human folly. I went to Doha a bit before it too went bananas, and it was a thoroughly unremarkable and boring 'country' - the same kind of extravagant hotels and shopping malls you'd find in America. I have little interest in going back there either. Bahrain's only purpose, basically, is to allow expats in KSA to take weekend trips to booze up.

Jordan, on the other hand, is a remarkable and beautiful country which I have only fond, positive memories of. OK, Amman is a giant overturned ashtray and one would do well to stay the least amount of time possible there. But Petra, Wadi Rum, the Dead Sea and Jerash are some of the most beautiful places I've seen in the world.

[Indy Texas]

Well, to begin with, it's a real bitch to get into Saudi Arabia - I don't keep track of Saudi visa requirements, and it might have changed, but as far as I know they're very anal about who gets to get in on a 'tourist visa': unless you're visiting somebody who is a resident or a businessperson, it is probably very tough to just get in as an individual tourist who is not an organized tour. That said, the random stuff which people like to believe on Saudi Arabia being akin to North Korea as far as entrance goes is mostly mindless drivel, part and parcel of the whole package of drivel which people believe about that place. Although, that being said, Saudi visa requirements - for everybody - are certainly very unusual and bizarre. As a resident of the Kingdom, I needed an exit/re-entry visa each time I left the country for a temporary vacation and I had a final exit visa when I left the country definitely.

As for entering Makkah and Madinah as a non-Muslim, I have no personal tales to tell given that I never went (shockingly) nor do I know of any non-Muslims who did manage to get in. However, the Saudi government has separate visas for Hajj and Umrah and the whole process is very, very strictly controlled (for Muslims first and foremost) and I would guess that a general 'tourist visa' would not allow you to legally enter the cities. I also believe that there are police checkpoints before entering those cities (although I obviously can't verify this to be true, year-round); I wouldn't be able to know if there is a risk of random police checks once in the city to verify identities (there aren't any such things in the major cities - although there might be in Makkah and Madinah). Although I definitely think it's not worth the risk - regular run-of-the-mill Saudi police people are not bloodthirsty maniacs, but I still wouldn't want to be on the receiving end and/or a woman with them.

The tourism industry is very small and undeveloped in the country, so there isn't much of a draw. That being said, there are definitely some interesting places to see - Jeddah is apparently not too bad, the desert around Riyadh is great (some really breathtaking scenery around Edge of the World), Asir is apparently beautiful, there's Mada’in Saleh (although you can go to Petra for that stuff) and Riyadh has its parts.

How about the countries immediately adjacent to Saudi Arabia, specifically Oman?  You've ever been there?  How does it compare with Saudi Arabia?  Would you recommend it as an alternative destination?   

It's been ages since I've been to Oman (Muscat) and I was young back then, but from what I can recall, it's a fairly nice place - fairly quiet, tourism is not huge, it lacks the kitsch gaudiness of Dubai/Doha (a positive, in my mind) and it's a small city nestled in valleys and nice mountains. I recall the beaches were pretty good too - certainly better than the beaches I went to in Doha. Omani culture is also distinct from Najdi culture (although Najdi culture is certainly very different from most coastal Arabian Peninsula cultures), and is quite interesting.

I went to Dubai some 12-14 years ago or something, which was just at the start of their massive sick tourism/development drive (basically only Burj al-Arab and the Jumeirah Beach Resort were the 'new' hotels back then), so I would not recognize it but I personally have no interest in going to that sick, kitschy and gaudy monument to slavery and human folly. I went to Doha a bit before it too went bananas, and it was a thoroughly unremarkable and boring 'country' - the same kind of extravagant hotels and shopping malls you'd find in America. I have little interest in going back there either. Bahrain's only purpose, basically, is to allow expats in KSA to take weekend trips to booze up.

Jordan, on the other hand, is a remarkable and beautiful country which I have only fond, positive memories of. OK, Amman is a giant overturned ashtray and one would do well to stay the least amount of time possible there. But Petra, Wadi Rum, the Dead Sea and Jerash are some of the most beautiful places I've seen in the world.

Basically, and now it's trying to be a dollar-store Dubai, which makes matters worse.

[Bacon King]

All the roads leading into Mecca have huge tollbooth-like structures where they individually verify the Muslimness of every vehicle entering the city.

It appears that the only practical way for a non-Muslim to enter undetected is to accompany Saudi Muslim friend of the same gender as yourself while quietly masquerading as a fellow local. If you try to enter on your own, or try to enter as an obvious foreigner even if you're with a local, they will check your papers, and they will notice you don't have a pilgrimage visa (which serves as full proof of practicing the Muslim faith since the application for it requires a notarized certificate from a mosque). Your presumably non-Muslim name would also be a dead giveaway.

And in any case you'd also have to deal with the whole sexism thing that the Saudis are so crazy about- as a woman you will not be allowed to enter the Holy Cities unattended. IIRC you are not married, so legally you will need to be accompanied by your father, a brother, or any potential milk-brother you have through your wetnurse (but only if such suckling properly satiated your appetite on five seperate occasions before you turned two). A signed permission slip from your brother, milk-brother, or father will suffice if you are postmenopausal and/or traveling with a group.

if you want to do it though here is my advice! It should probably be the last thing you plan on doing before your flight home. If they catch you at the checkpoint into the city they will probably just turn you away, but if you get past them and subsequently get caught on the inside of the city limits, you will be briefly detained and they will revoke your visa. You will face deportation, which in practice apparently means they give you a ride to the airport and escort you to the internetional terminal on the far side of Saudi customs, border/immigration controls, and etc (apparently this is what they did when a Christian was caught in Medina a few years ago).

(disclaimer: breaking laws is bad and you definitely shouldn't do it especially when you're an outsider visiting a culture that takes lawbreaking very seriously. If you plan on doing this, definitely memorize the phone number of the Danish Embassy beforehand)

[politicus]

All the roads leading into Mecca have huge tollbooth-like structures where they individually verify the Muslimness of every vehicle entering the city.

It appears that the only practical way for a non-Muslim to enter undetected is to accompany Saudi Muslim friend of the same gender as yourself while quietly masquerading as a fellow local. If you try to enter on your own, or try to enter as an obvious foreigner even if you're with a local, they will check your papers, and they will notice you don't have a pilgrimage visa (which serves as full proof of practicing the Muslim faith since the application for it requires a notarized certificate from a mosque). Your presumably non-Muslim name would also be a dead giveaway.

And in any case you'd also have to deal with the whole sexism thing that the Saudis are so crazy about- as a woman you will not be allowed to enter the Holy Cities unattended. IIRC you are not married, so legally you will need to be accompanied by your father, a brother, or any potential milk-brother you have through your wetnurse (but only if such suckling properly satiated your appetite on five seperate occasions before you turned two). A signed permission slip from your brother, milk-brother, or father will suffice if you are postmenopausal and/or traveling with a group.

if you want to do it though here is my advice! It should probably be the last thing you plan on doing before your flight home. If they catch you at the checkpoint into the city they will probably just turn you away, but if you get past them and subsequently get caught on the inside of the city limits, you will be briefly detained and they will revoke your visa. You will face deportation, which in practice apparently means they give you a ride to the airport and escort you to the internetional terminal on the far side of Saudi customs, border/immigration controls, and etc (apparently this is what they did when a Christian was caught in Medina a few years ago).

(disclaimer: breaking laws is bad and you definitely shouldn't do it especially when you're an outsider visiting a culture that takes lawbreaking very seriously. If you plan on doing this, definitely memorize the phone number of the Danish Embassy beforehand)

Thx Justin, where did you get the info from?

[Bacon King]

Mostly from memory, verified with a bit of googling. A while back I saw a picture of one of those "Muslims Only" highway signs, which was a very strange curiosity to me, so I was intrigued and researched how thoroughly the law was enforced, how they determined one's religion, what happens when someone violates it, and such. The bit about how Sharia law considers a wetnurse and her kids to be a close family relationship will always amuse me

I forgot my favorite Mecca fun fact though- during the 1979 Mecca Rebellion, France sent a GIGN team in to help the Sauds, and just before the mission started all the French soldiers actually converted to Islam in a brief formal ceremony, just so their presence wouldn't provoke thing