California Adopts 'Yes Means Yes' Sexual Assault Rule
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  California Adopts 'Yes Means Yes' Sexual Assault Rule
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Author Topic: California Adopts 'Yes Means Yes' Sexual Assault Rule  (Read 13443 times)
Tetro Kornbluth
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« Reply #50 on: September 30, 2014, 06:53:20 PM »

This law has the potential to upend traditional norms when it comes to gender roles. It's probably safer for men to simply take a more passive approach when it comes to sex, and let her take the initiative from now on.  

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Frodo
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« Reply #51 on: September 30, 2014, 07:07:01 PM »

This law has the potential to upend traditional norms when it comes to gender roles. It's probably safer for men to simply take a more passive approach when it comes to sex, and let her take the initiative from now on.  



?
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MaxQue
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« Reply #52 on: September 30, 2014, 08:08:20 PM »

I don't see the issue with "affirmative consent". It's already the case in many Western countries.
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #53 on: September 30, 2014, 08:13:44 PM »

I know it seems weird but my friends post articles on Facebook all the time, I see comments on Jezebel and other websites.

At first I thought they were poorly constructed parodies but everyone appears to be taking them at face value. If anyone is even mildly critical, they are shouted down.

The story is always the same: Girl in college. Guy asks her out. She doesn't want to but agrees out of pity. She allows herself to get drunk. She agrees to go back to his place. She makes out with him even though she doesn't want to, again out of pity. They have sex. She doesn't say "no" but she either doesn't move or she says something like "slow down" or "please wear a condom" It's rape. After the rape, she may agree to hang out with him several more times, again apparently out of pity. She may even get "raped" a couple more times. The writer will then make clear that the worst part is this person doesn't even know he's a rapist! But they are!

I've seen variations on that story so many times over the past couple years.

Also, just to be clear, nothing like that has ever happened to me. I always wait for enthusiastic consent and use a safe word even when I'm not doing anything particularly kinky, just because I'm terrified of these chicks being out there.

Holy hell. This is monstrous.

Like I said, some of these guys just think they're alpha males entitled to sex. They're rapists. Others are just average awkward guys who don't know they're intimidating and not connecting the dots.

Those groups definitely exist but I still do think there are women who seek out the attention that being "raped" brings. I once knew in a girl, IRL, who claimed her long term boyfriend raped her because he got her to go along with sex even though she was sick and didn't feel like it. She admitted she didn't say "no" she just acquiesced to having sex with the guy she lived with and shared a bed with. She kept going out with the guy for 2 years after that also. Of course, after she told that story, everyone in the room told her what a brave, beautiful survivor she was. That's why some women try to read rape into all their past sexual encounters, the attention, it's like Munchhausen syndrome.

Of course, I don't think things like this constitute a majority of rape accusations, but they do exist. People practically brag about their rapes the way people used to brag about their bad childhoods to show how deep and interesting they are.
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #54 on: September 30, 2014, 08:19:52 PM »
« Edited: September 30, 2014, 08:51:22 PM by Famous Mortimer »

At the risk of sounding like a religious prude, let me point out that this sort of bill would not be needed if our culture did not merely tolerate, but encourage casual sex.  If at the very least, the expectation for both men and women would be that they would at the least be "going steady" before visiting a certain village in Pennsylvania, the number of conflicting accounts (whether from differing interpretations or outright lying) of whether sex was consensual would be considerably reduced.

I tend to think that the issue isn't the prevalence of casual sex. The issue is (some) men feeling entitled to sex with any woman they want, regardless of the woman's feelings or if there's any chemistry between them (or in some cases, if the woman even knows the man exists). The days of female sexuality being controlled by men are over, and thank Zeus for that. Yet some jealous, resentful, misogynistic men apparently haven't gotten over that development.

And there really aren't many cases of outright lying by survivors of sexual assault.

People say that but how could we possibly know? Liars don't tend to admit they're liars. Even the "rape culture" crowd acknowledge it's between 3-8% and that's only including cases where the accuser admits they lied or where the accused has a rock solid alibi. It's assuming the accuser is telling the truth in absolutely every other he-said-she-said, which is wishful thinking at best. I don't think the most rape accusations are false. I think 10% is a perfectly reasonable number, only slightly higher than the one the intersectionalists grudgingly acknowledge. That's still a significant number though, a big enough number not to do away with the assumption of innocence in the face of no evidence.  
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angus
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« Reply #55 on: September 30, 2014, 08:36:07 PM »

I don't see the issue with "affirmative consent". It's already the case in many Western countries.

Seriously?  

Man, I'm just not buying it.  I may be an old boring married guy but I wasn't always this way.  I've been laid in a number of "Western Countries."  I do not remember any conversations involving either of us asking the other for permission each step of the way.  This see,s really bizarre.  Is this the kind of conversation that young people have these days during foreplay?  Seriously?  I'm having trouble believing any of this.  It's a little embarrassing to have to paint a picture for you, but I sometimes think we may just have to do it.  Go back to the basics.  You people really ought to get offline once in a while and experience the world.  This sort of thinking isn't healthy.  You may agree with Ernest that all sex is bad sex, or you may agree with Mr. Morden that the nasty sluts had it coming, or you may agree with Leif that legislators legislating the conversation leading up to casual sex is normal and good.  I don't agree with any of those attitudes.  I seriously hope most of you don't either.


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bedstuy
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« Reply #56 on: September 30, 2014, 08:43:12 PM »

I don't see the issue with "affirmative consent". It's already the case in many Western countries.

Seriously?  

Man, I'm just not buying it.  I may be an old boring married guy but I wasn't always this way.  I've been laid in a number of "Western Countries."  I do not remember any conversations involving either of us asking the other for permission each step of the way.  This is really bizarre?  Is this the kind of conversation that young people have these days during foreplay?  Seriously?  I'm having trouble believing any of this.  It's a little embarrassing to have to paint a picture for you, but I sometimes think we may just have to do it.  Go back to the basics.  You people really ought to get offline once in a while and experience the world.  This sort of thinking isn't healthy.  You may agree with Ernest that all sex is bad sex, or you may agree with Mr. Morden that the nasty sluts had it coming, or you may agree with Leif that legislators legislating the conversation leading up to casual sex is normal and good.  I don't agree with any of those attitudes.  I seriously hope most of you don't either.

What does "affirmative consent" actually mean?  Obviously, you're probably not going to ask someone, "may I have sex with you right now?"  From what I can tell, it just means, if someone is catatonic from being drunk or under duress, you can't say they consented because they didn't say the word "no."  But, it's the same basic consent the way we mean consent in any other circumstance.  It can be words or it can be inferred from actions and circumstances.
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MaxQue
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« Reply #57 on: September 30, 2014, 08:45:53 PM »

I don't see the issue with "affirmative consent". It's already the case in many Western countries.

Seriously?  

Man, I'm just not buying it.  I may be an old boring married guy but I wasn't always this way.  I've been laid in a number of "Western Countries."  I do not remember any conversations involving either of us asking the other for permission each step of the way.  This see,s really bizarre.  Is this the kind of conversation that young people have these days during foreplay?  Seriously?  I'm having trouble believing any of this.  It's a little embarrassing to have to paint a picture for you, but I sometimes think we may just have to do it.  Go back to the basics.  You people really ought to get offline once in a while and experience the world.  This sort of thinking isn't healthy.  You may agree with Ernest that all sex is bad sex, or you may agree with Mr. Morden that the nasty sluts had it coming, or you may agree with Leif that legislators legislating the conversation leading up to casual sex is normal and good.  I don't agree with any of those attitudes.  I seriously hope most of you don't either.




Affirmation doesn't mean only "yes". It's more complex and wide than that.
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angus
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« Reply #58 on: September 30, 2014, 08:49:31 PM »

bedstuy, I don't know really, and neither does anyone else, but it is certain that it cannot be "inferred."  That much is clear.  There's a document that the state posted and I linked herein, but I think that US legislatures have a history of reacting proactively to avoid litigation, and I think this is one such case.  My main concerns are the precedents it will set, the burdens it will place on the student in the form of increased tuition, and the bureaucracy it will create for university administrators.  I find it very disheartening that so many otherwise well-adjusted posters are jumping on this bandwagon.  

MaxQue, it most certainly does.  The architects of the bill were clear on at least that point.  Also, rape is a crime.  It was already a crime.  This bill does nothing to change that.  I can see no good coming from this bill.
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Mr. Morden
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« Reply #59 on: September 30, 2014, 08:50:05 PM »

you may agree with Mr. Morden that the nasty sluts had it coming

wut?
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angus
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« Reply #60 on: September 30, 2014, 08:52:31 PM »

LOL.  other guy.  Frodo.  tweed.  Captain Picard.  Somebody.  It's all a blur at this point.  Don't make me go back and look at the thread and figure out who I might have been talking about.  

Sorry if that wasn't you.  No offense.   Smiley
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Cory
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« Reply #61 on: September 30, 2014, 08:53:15 PM »

I know it seems weird but my friends post articles on Facebook all the time, I see comments on Jezebel and other websites.

At first I thought they were poorly constructed parodies but everyone appears to be taking them at face value. If anyone is even mildly critical, they are shouted down.

The story is always the same: Girl in college. Guy asks her out. She doesn't want to but agrees out of pity. She allows herself to get drunk. She agrees to go back to his place. She makes out with him even though she doesn't want to, again out of pity. They have sex. She doesn't say "no" but she either doesn't move or she says something like "slow down" or "please wear a condom" It's rape. After the rape, she may agree to hang out with him several more times, again apparently out of pity. She may even get "raped" a couple more times. The writer will then make clear that the worst part is this person doesn't even know he's a rapist! But they are!

I've seen variations on that story so many times over the past couple years.

Also, just to be clear, nothing like that has ever happened to me. I always wait for enthusiastic consent and use a safe word even when I'm not doing anything particularly kinky, just because I'm terrified of these chicks being out there.

Well I do admit these types do exist in real life they are only a small fringe group mostly based around Tumblr and Jezebel. They are essentially the female version of MRA's.
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angus
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« Reply #62 on: September 30, 2014, 08:54:02 PM »
« Edited: September 30, 2014, 08:57:55 PM by angus »

Ah, yes, Famous Mortimer.

Mortimer.  Morden.  You can see how that might have happened.  My apologies, Mr. Morden.
  
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #63 on: September 30, 2014, 09:01:22 PM »

I don't think women deserve to get raped.

I think if a woman agrees to go on a date with a man, gets drunk with him (assuming she's not totally wasted), agrees to go back to his house after midnight, and doesn't say "no" it is extremely likely that sex will happen and I don't think you can call that rape.
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bedstuy
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« Reply #64 on: September 30, 2014, 09:03:44 PM »
« Edited: September 30, 2014, 09:07:20 PM by bedstuy »

bedstuy, I don't know really, and neither does anyone else, but it is certain that it cannot be "inferred."  That much is clear.  There's a document that the state posted and I linked herein, but I think that US legislatures have a history of reacting proactively to avoid litigation, and I think this is one such case.  My main concerns are the precedents it will set, the burdens it will place on the student in the form of increased tuition, and the bureaucracy it will create for university administrators.  I find it very disheartening that so many otherwise well-adjusted posters are jumping on this bandwagon.  

I went back and read the text of the bill.  Is that what you meant?  Because, I think my understanding is valid and I don't know what your reading is.
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DrScholl
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« Reply #65 on: September 30, 2014, 09:06:49 PM »

It's very, very unlikely that anyone can be muddled on what is consent, since it's not hard to tell yes from no. The people who claim they can't tell the difference, really do know the difference and just want to play dumb for their own selfish reasons.
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angus
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« Reply #66 on: September 30, 2014, 09:08:02 PM »


Well, shit.  Another egg on my face.

My sincere apologies to you as well, sir.  It seems that not only did I insult you by confusing you with another poster, but I also misrepresented your position.  

I'll come back in the morning after I have metabolized my scotch, because I'm sure that I think I have something intelligent to say about all this.  I'm quite certain that it is really, really bad legislation.  Give me 12 hours to prepare my case.  Forgive me if I don't use any of your arguments, because I think my case will be better represented without them.  Smiley

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Small Business Owner of Any Repute
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« Reply #67 on: September 30, 2014, 09:21:04 PM »

I can't believe that having to hear a girl actually say "yes" is such a burden.
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© tweed
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« Reply #68 on: September 30, 2014, 09:26:51 PM »

I can't believe that having to hear a girl actually say "yes" is such a burden.

my issue wouldn't be with that but with the shift to a preponderance-of-the-evidence standard in the campus justice system.
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #69 on: September 30, 2014, 09:31:02 PM »

I can't believe that having to hear a girl actually say "yes" is such a burden.

Well according to this law, saying "no" is a huge burden. Both parties need to make themselves clear.
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Small Business Owner of Any Repute
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« Reply #70 on: September 30, 2014, 09:34:38 PM »
« Edited: September 30, 2014, 10:29:35 PM by True Federalist »

I can't believe that having to hear a girl actually say "yes" is such a burden.

Well according to this law, saying "no" is a huge burden. Both parties need to make themselves clear.

IF CONSENT IS NOT CLEAR YOU DO NOT GET TO BANG THE GIRL ANYWAY
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Deus Naturae
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« Reply #71 on: September 30, 2014, 09:37:30 PM »

Obviously this is a good rule.

About that whole disgusting "he said, she said" canard:

1) You do realize that false accusations are really really rare, and that unreported assaults are orders of magnitude more common, no?
2) Eyewitness testimony is admissible in a court of law, why do we seem to be so uniquely skeptical of it when it comes from rape/assault victims?
The problem with rape cases is that in any many cases the only eyewitness will be the victim herself. I'm not saying there are tons of false rape accusations, but you can't convict when the only evidence is eyewitness testimony from the person who's making the accusation.
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bedstuy
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« Reply #72 on: September 30, 2014, 09:37:56 PM »

I can't believe that having to hear a girl actually say "yes" is such a burden.

That's not even the debate here.  This bill just says, the lack of a clear statement, "no" does not equal consent.  And, I think we're all agreed on that here, even Mr. Show dude.  

Ultimately, I think this is just a crazy debate to be having.  Any reasonable person knows what consent is.  Nobody is asking men to go through some exotic consent ritual, this is just common sense.  At worst, the onus is just on you to make sure that your sex partner is willing.  That's not some crazy burden, if you're not sure that someone wants to have sex at that moment, use your words for God's sake.  If you're a decent human being, you make sure that they're consenting and there's no ambiguity in what they want.  You can't just go around doing stuff and then blaming other people because they didn't stop you, that's being an insane narcissist.

In the event you have a "he-said, she-said" situation, the system just needs to deal with that by trying to find out the facts.
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Famous Mortimer
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« Reply #73 on: September 30, 2014, 09:38:46 PM »
« Edited: September 30, 2014, 10:30:37 PM by True Federalist »

I can't believe that having to hear a girl actually say "yes" is such a burden.

Well according to this law, saying "no" is a huge burden. Both parties need to make themselves clear.

IF CONSENT IS NOT CLEAR YOU DO NOT GET TO BANG THE GIRL ANYWAY

If a girl agrees to go on a date with you and agrees to go back to your place after that date, that would seem to be fairly clear implied consent to most people. If that's not the case, the girl needs to give a clear "no" to cancel out the mixed messages.
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bedstuy
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« Reply #74 on: September 30, 2014, 09:44:46 PM »
« Edited: September 30, 2014, 10:30:54 PM by True Federalist »

I can't believe that having to hear a girl actually say "yes" is such a burden.

Well according to this law, saying "no" is a huge burden. Both parties need to make themselves clear.

IF CONSENT IS NOT CLEAR YOU DO NOT GET TO BANG THE GIRL ANYWAY

If a girl agrees to go on a date with you and agrees to go back to your place after that date, that would seem to be fairly clear implied consent to most people. If that's the case, the girl needs to give a clear "no" to cancel out the mixed messages.

No.  It's not fairly clear.  It's not the least bit clear.  What on earth are you talking about?  People go on dates without having sex.  
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