California Adopts 'Yes Means Yes' Sexual Assault Rule

[Famous Mortimer]

It was already illegal to have sex with unconscious or drunk people (even mildly tipsy people, in fact, although in practice no one ever reported such things).

As such, this law is unnecessary.

Additionally, I do think this will result in lots of frivolous rape accusations. The intersectionalist left is already obsessed with "close reading" every aspect of society to find a sinister "White cis-male" motivation behind everything. Now they want to do that with sexuality in the legal sphere.

[Famous Mortimer]

I know it seems weird but my friends post articles on Facebook all the time, I see comments on Jezebel and other websites.

At first I thought they were poorly constructed parodies but everyone appears to be taking them at face value. If anyone is even mildly critical, they are shouted down.

The story is always the same: Girl in college. Guy asks her out. She doesn't want to but agrees out of pity. She allows herself to get drunk. She agrees to go back to his place. She makes out with him even though she doesn't want to, again out of pity. They have sex. She doesn't say "no" but she either doesn't move or she says something like "slow down" or "please wear a condom" It's rape. After the rape, she may agree to hang out with him several more times, again apparently out of pity. She may even get "raped" a couple more times. The writer will then make clear that the worst part is this person doesn't even know he's a rapist! But they are!

I've seen variations on that story so many times over the past couple years.

Also, just to be clear, nothing like that has ever happened to me. I always wait for enthusiastic consent and use a safe word even when I'm not doing anything particularly kinky, just because I'm terrified of these chicks being out there.

[Famous Mortimer]

I know it seems weird but my friends post articles on Facebook all the time, I see comments on Jezebel and other websites.

At first I thought they were poorly constructed parodies but everyone appears to be taking them at face value. If anyone is even mildly critical, they are shouted down.

The story is always the same: Girl in college. Guy asks her out. She doesn't want to but agrees out of pity. She allows herself to get drunk. She agrees to go back to his place. She makes out with him even though she doesn't want to, again out of pity. They have sex. She doesn't say "no" but she either doesn't move or she says something like "slow down" or "please wear a condom" It's rape. After the rape, she may agree to hang out with him several more times, again apparently out of pity. She may even get "raped" a couple more times. The writer will then make clear that the worst part is this person doesn't even know he's a rapist! But they are!

I've seen variations on that story so many times over the past couple years.

Also, just to be clear, nothing like that has ever happened to me. I always wait for enthusiastic consent and use a safe word even when I'm not doing anything particularly kinky, just because I'm terrified of these chicks being out there.

Holy hell. This is monstrous.

Like I said, some of these guys just think they're alpha males entitled to sex. They're rapists. Others are just average awkward guys who don't know they're intimidating and not connecting the dots.

Those groups definitely exist but I still do think there are women who seek out the attention that being "raped" brings. I once knew in a girl, IRL, who claimed her long term boyfriend raped her because he got her to go along with sex even though she was sick and didn't feel like it. She admitted she didn't say "no" she just acquiesced to having sex with the guy she lived with and shared a bed with. She kept going out with the guy for 2 years after that also. Of course, after she told that story, everyone in the room told her what a brave, beautiful survivor she was. That's why some women try to read rape into all their past sexual encounters, the attention, it's like Munchhausen syndrome.

Of course, I don't think things like this constitute a majority of rape accusations, but they do exist. People practically brag about their rapes the way people used to brag about their bad childhoods to show how deep and interesting they are.

[Famous Mortimer]

At the risk of sounding like a religious prude, let me point out that this sort of bill would not be needed if our culture did not merely tolerate, but encourage casual sex.  If at the very least, the expectation for both men and women would be that they would at the least be "going steady" before visiting a certain village in Pennsylvania, the number of conflicting accounts (whether from differing interpretations or outright lying) of whether sex was consensual would be considerably reduced.

I tend to think that the issue isn't the prevalence of casual sex. The issue is (some) men feeling entitled to sex with any woman they want, regardless of the woman's feelings or if there's any chemistry between them (or in some cases, if the woman even knows the man exists). The days of female sexuality being controlled by men are over, and thank Zeus for that. Yet some jealous, resentful, misogynistic men apparently haven't gotten over that development.

And there really aren't many cases of outright lying by survivors of sexual assault.

People say that but how could we possibly know? Liars don't tend to admit they're liars. Even the "rape culture" crowd acknowledge it's between 3-8% and that's only including cases where the accuser admits they lied or where the accused has a rock solid alibi. It's assuming the accuser is telling the truth in absolutely every other he-said-she-said, which is wishful thinking at best. I don't think the most rape accusations are false. I think 10% is a perfectly reasonable number, only slightly higher than the one the intersectionalists grudgingly acknowledge. That's still a significant number though, a big enough number not to do away with the assumption of innocence in the face of no evidence.  

[Famous Mortimer]

I don't think women deserve to get raped.

I think if a woman agrees to go on a date with a man, gets drunk with him (assuming she's not totally wasted), agrees to go back to his house after midnight, and doesn't say "no" it is extremely likely that sex will happen and I don't think you can call that rape.

[Famous Mortimer]

I can't believe that having to hear a girl actually say "yes" is such a burden.

Well according to this law, saying "no" is a huge burden. Both parties need to make themselves clear.

[Famous Mortimer]

I can't believe that having to hear a girl actually say "yes" is such a burden.

Well according to this law, saying "no" is a huge burden. Both parties need to make themselves clear.

IF CONSENT IS NOT CLEAR YOU DO NOT GET TO BANG THE GIRL ANYWAY

If a girl agrees to go on a date with you and agrees to go back to your place after that date, that would seem to be fairly clear implied consent to most people. If that's not the case, the girl needs to give a clear "no" to cancel out the mixed messages.

[Famous Mortimer]

Haha, a girl coming up for a drink after a date is definitely implied consent.

If you legitimately disagree, you don't live in the real world.

I suspect you know I'm right though and that's why you're overcompensating with caps.

That said, I personally would need more than that to move forward but I could forgive someone for accepting that alone (again, assuming the girl isn't wasted and doesn't say "no") At the very least I wouldn't want to label them a rapist, one of the worst things you could possibly be, based on their perfectly reasonable assumption.

[Famous Mortimer]

"Do you want to come up to my place for a drink?" = "do you want to have sex?"

Everyone knows that because it's been repeated in every piece of media ever.

Anyone who doesn't know that is either a vegetable or being disingenuous.

[Famous Mortimer]

"Do you want to come up to my place for a drink?" = "do you want to have sex?"

Everyone knows that because it's been repeated in every piece of media ever.

Anyone who doesn't know that is either a vegetable or being disingenuous.

I'm gay so maybe I'm not an expert on this stuff.  But, I don't think every hetero post-date hookup includes vaginal intercourse.  Sometimes you people just make out and watch an episode of Househunters or something, right?  Especially if it's a first date?  But, I think you citing TV for an example of how people have sex just shows your maturity level when it comes to relationships.

If straight people do not want to have sex on the first date, they would not go back to one of their places to hang out afterwards. This is universal. Every straight person who has ever had sex will back me up.

[Famous Mortimer]

Haha, a girl coming up for a drink after a date is definitely implied consent.

If you legitimately disagree, you don't live in the real world.

I live in the world, and I definitely disagree with that revolting concept.  Sex is a wonderful thing, but because of that, it shouldn't be so trivially treated as you apparently do.

Okay, straight people under 30 who aren't fundamentalist Christians who oppose sex before marriage.

[Famous Mortimer]

Obviously if you agree to a drink and say "NO" you mean "NO"

but if you agree to a drink and you don't say anything, you will come off as being coy, and that's probably your intention unless you're mentally ill or an idiot.

[Famous Mortimer]

This thread is a train wreck what the Christ did nobody else notice Mortimer claiming that spousal rape doesn't exist - by telling a story about how his friend was spousally raped??

Again, trying to find sinister intent in everything.

I said no such thing. Spousal rape exists for sure. Don't be a pedant.

[Famous Mortimer]

Haha, a girl coming up for a drink after a date is definitely implied consent.

Obviously if you agree to a drink and say "NO" you mean "NO"

but if you agree to a drink and you don't say anything, you will come off as being coy, and that's probably your intention unless you're mentally ill or an idiot.

It's obvious that once in the apartment or wherever, the girl may think twice. Even when the girl says nothing, usually it's not difficult to perceive if your partner is unreceptive for whatever reason. You may be too horny or too drunk and then your mind works in slow motion, but still you should be able to perceive something, or just asking the girl if everything is OK before you launch the attack. It's a matter of common sense and carefulness towards other human being. If you fear being deemed as a coy or an idiot for being careful or asking, then you have a serious immaturity issue.

Obviously consent can be withdrawn at any time but if you decide to withdraw consent after giving a series of green lights and non-verbal cues that are universally recognized as being into it, you should clearly state that you've changed your mind. Not to do so is stupid and negatively impacts everyone in the situation.

[Famous Mortimer]

If you invite a woman up to your place for drinks, after going on a date, and she agrees, she is almost certainly willing to have sex with you. Just because you don't make the final move doesn't mean she wasn't signaling interest.

[Famous Mortimer]

If you invite a woman up to your place for drinks, after going on a date, she is almost certainly willing to have sex with you. Just because you don't make the final move doesn't mean she wasn't signaling interest.

I'm sure you're a world-renowed expert on female psychology.

You don't need to be an expert. Most people know this. Most women admit this. It's not a secret.

You guys are just apparently turning down massive amounts of sex.

[Famous Mortimer]

It usually happens but just because its happens 90% of the time doesn't mean it will 100% of the time. I can't remember when it didn't happen at all but there are times where either you or her won't ascend to "full intercourse". Oh. There was one time when I just was broken up in a really bad way and she just agreed to literally sleep naked. 

I would say 90% is fair. There are exceptions to every rule. Exactly because it is so rare though, the woman should make clear if she is not into it. Otherwise she is sending mixed signals and needlessly getting herself into a situation she doesn't want.

[Famous Mortimer]

If you invite a woman up to your place for drinks, after going on a date, she is almost certainly willing to have sex with you. Just because you don't make the final move doesn't mean she wasn't signaling interest.

I'm sure you're a world-renowed expert on female psychology.

You don't need to be an expert. Most people know this. Most women admit this. It's not a secret.

You guys are just apparently turning down massive amounts of sex.

The problem with your position isn't that there aren't non-explicit signals of consent, which sometimes include invitations (or acceptance of invitations) to one's home. The problem is that you seem to be saying that's all a woman can mean by such an invitation or acceptance of such an invitation.

And BTW, 10% of the time is not "exceedingly rare," even if that truly does represent an actual number and not something that people are just ballparking for conversation purposes.

Acceptance of an invitation could mean other things, absolutely. But if that's the case, she should say so. Because most normal people are going to interpret it the normal way.