what should be the burden of proof for campus justice system sexual assaults?
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 28, 2024, 04:39:20 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Politics
  U.S. General Discussion (Moderators: The Dowager Mod, Chancellor Tanterterg)
  what should be the burden of proof for campus justice system sexual assaults?
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2
Poll
Question: what should be the burden of proof for campus justice system sexual assaults?
#1
preponderance of the evidence
 
#2
beyond a reasonable doubt
 
#3
other (explain)
 
Show Pie Chart
Partisan results

Total Voters: 48

Author Topic: what should be the burden of proof for campus justice system sexual assaults?  (Read 2466 times)
© tweed
Miamiu1027
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 36,563
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« on: October 01, 2014, 08:47:48 AM »

what should be the burden of proof for campus justice system sexual assaults?
Logged
Sol
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 8,051
Bosnia and Herzegovina


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #1 on: October 01, 2014, 09:22:30 AM »

Option 1, presuming that this is regarding decisions such as expulsion rather than a criminal conviction.
Logged
dead0man
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 46,079
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #2 on: October 01, 2014, 09:37:59 AM »

It should be the exact same as non-campus rapes....seems rather obvious to me.  Schools shouldn't be investigating, putting on trials and punishing rapists.  The entire system is stupid beyond words.  Honestly, it was kind of shocking to me when I learned that's how a lot of Unis do things.
Logged
BaconBacon96
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,678
Ireland, Republic of


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3 on: October 01, 2014, 10:14:17 AM »

Universities shouldn't be allowed to do this.
Logged
© tweed
Miamiu1027
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 36,563
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2014, 10:44:36 AM »

  Schools shouldn't be investigating, putting on trials and punishing rapists.  The entire system is stupid beyond words.  Honestly, it was kind of shocking to me when I learned that's how a lot of Unis do things.

Universities shouldn't be allowed to do this.

how should universities go about 'punishing' students then?  obviously they don't conduct trials in the sense of being able to incarcerate anyone or award money from one party to another, but only to suspend or expel or make the accused go to counseling.
Logged
dead0man
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 46,079
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2014, 10:58:38 AM »

If the potential rapist is tried in a real court and found guilty, kick him out.  If me or someone I loved got raped and the only people punishing the bastard was the school I'm going to be super pissed.  Again, it's beyond stupid that schools do this.  It's fine for things like cheating, maybe even fighting (I'd still rather that get taken care of in a real courtroom), but for serious crimes, it's stupid.
Logged
AggregateDemand
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,873
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #6 on: October 01, 2014, 11:41:36 AM »

If you're charging someone with a crime, the answer seems rather obvious. If its a matter of expulsion, preponderance is probably suitable.

My complaint is the lack of circumstantial consideration taken by schools and law enforcement. Major state schools have at least 10,000 drunk, high, horny kids running around every weekend. Sex, nonconsensual or otherwise, is basically the motivation behind the hedonistic excess. Yes-means-yes will just lead to the mass incarceration of young men by shifting nearly all sexual responsibility to the male gender.

If you want to shut it down, you've got to go after the organizations and social networks that create debauched sexual encounters, with malice aforethought. Some fraternities, clubs, sports teams, and even sororities are notorious for intentionally creating sexual debauchery as a sort of right of passage.

Revoke charters. File civil charges. Bankrupt them.
Logged
Beet
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 28,802


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #7 on: October 01, 2014, 12:04:27 PM »

If the potential rapist is tried in a real court and found guilty, kick him out.  If me or someone I loved got raped and the only people punishing the bastard was the school I'm going to be super pissed.

But would you rather the school punish him or her, or the perpetrator not receive any punishment at all? What if it was the difference between the victim dropping out of school /transferring or not?
Logged
Lief 🗽
Lief
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 44,875


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #8 on: October 01, 2014, 12:19:30 PM »

If the school thinks it's more likely than not that one of their students is a rapist, then they should be able to expel him or her. Not sure why this is controversial.
Logged
Franzl
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 22,254
Germany


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2014, 12:22:14 PM »

If the school thinks it's more likely than not that one of their students is a rapist, then they should be able to expel him or her. Not sure why this is controversial.

More likely than not? That means out of 100 expulsions under suspicion of rape, it's not a problem if 49 are innocent?
Logged
🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸
shua
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 25,663
Nepal


Political Matrix
E: 1.29, S: -0.70

WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #10 on: October 01, 2014, 12:37:05 PM »

If your future prospects for education and a career are going to be ruined, I don't see how anything less than "beyond a reasonable doubt" is appropriate.
Logged
bedstuy
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,526


Political Matrix
E: -1.16, S: -4.35

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #11 on: October 01, 2014, 12:42:37 PM »

I think of preponderance of the evidence as the standard for civil cases, where the harm is monetary and the ultimate result is not a punishment per se.  The classic example is two people fighting over money in a contract, what is at stake is basically parallel for the two parties.  Beyond a reasonable doubt is a standard when the accusation is that you're a "criminal" and your freedom is potentially on the line.   

Essentially, deciding between those standards requires that you look at both what is at stake if you get it wrong.  Wrongly labelling someone a rapist and destroying their reputation and future career is really serious business.  That isn't something I would do because I was 50.1% sure they were guilty.  Wrongly forcing someone to pay $1000 damages in a traffic accident is just of a different order of magnitude. 

So, I would go with a reasonable doubt or clear and convincing evidence standard.  As much as rape is horrible and is a major problem in society, you can't throw away basic fairness and due process.  Fairness requires that you treat every accused person, not as a statistic or probably emblematic of the rape problem on college campuses, but as a human being entitled to a presumption of innocence and a fair process.
Logged
Simfan34
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,744
United States


Political Matrix
E: 0.90, S: 4.17

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2014, 01:14:41 PM »

Accusation:

http://columbiaspectator.com/news/2014/10/01/columbia-university-marching-bands-sexual-assault-policy-stems-members-personal
Logged
Person Man
Angry_Weasel
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 36,681
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2014, 01:38:01 PM »
« Edited: October 01, 2014, 01:42:27 PM by MooMooMoo »

Clear and convincing. It's an administrative charge by an administrative body for an organization to discipline it's members.Clear and convincing is intermediate and is used in areas such as probate.
Logged
Beet
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 28,802


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2014, 01:48:04 PM »
« Edited: October 01, 2014, 01:54:38 PM by Beet »

Essentially, deciding between those standards requires that you look at both what is at stake if you get it wrong.  Wrongly labelling someone a rapist and destroying their reputation and future career is really serious business.  That isn't something I would do because I was 50.1% sure they were guilty.  Wrongly forcing someone to pay $1000 damages in a traffic accident is just of a different order of magnitude.  

Well the difference is, everyone is entitled to their liberty and their property (after taxes, etc.) but arguably no one is entitled to a particular reputation or a particular future career. Which the school is not taking away anyway, since it technically isn't preventing the person from being hired or going to another school. Careers are ruined for dumber reasons all the time- someone posted the wrong thing on social media, and it went public, etc., or someone was arrested but never convicted, yet they still have an arrest record. Are those people entitled to compensation from the police, or others spreading harmful information about them?
Logged
Simfan34
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,744
United States


Political Matrix
E: 0.90, S: 4.17

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2014, 01:54:03 PM »
« Edited: October 01, 2014, 01:59:09 PM by Governor Varavour »


In other words, due to the unique, traumatic, and burdensome nature of sexual assault, there should be a presumption of guilt in such cases as far as the collegiate realm is concerned.
Logged
Slander and/or Libel
Figs
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,338


Political Matrix
E: -6.32, S: -7.83

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #16 on: October 01, 2014, 02:04:11 PM »


In other words, due to the unique, traumatic, and burdensome nature of sexual assault, there should be a presumption of guilt in such cases as far as the collegiate realm is concerned.

It's really distracting that "board" seems to be misspelled throughout the whole piece.
Logged
Simfan34
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,744
United States


Political Matrix
E: 0.90, S: 4.17

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #17 on: October 01, 2014, 02:11:17 PM »


In other words, due to the unique, traumatic, and burdensome nature of sexual assault, there should be a presumption of guilt in such cases as far as the collegiate realm is concerned.

It's really distracting that "board" seems to be misspelled throughout the whole piece.

It's a quirk of the marching band, apparently.
Logged
Cory
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3,709


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #18 on: October 01, 2014, 02:16:12 PM »


The Community Standards Agreement treats all allegations of assault as truth, and stipulates that Bored members must take steps against any member reported as an alleged assailant.

“We don't care if something is not confirmed, we aren't interested in having alleged perpetrators in our group,” CUMB Head Manager Edith Lerner, BC ’16, said in an official statement. “We recognize that there could be problems with the policy, but we wanted it implement it [sic] right away so that our new members this year knew right off the bat what our values are and how serious we are about our community.”

These people can't possibly be serious. In what universe is this idea anything other than patently retarded? Basically they are making a rule that if you decide you don't like someone you can instantly destroy them at one's own whim. Wow.

Ugh. Why does everybody have to be so stupid about everything?
Logged
True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
Moderators
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 42,157
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2014, 02:33:40 PM »


The Community Standards Agreement treats all allegations of assault as truth, and stipulates that Bored members must take steps against any member reported as an alleged assailant.

“We don't care if something is not confirmed, we aren't interested in having alleged perpetrators in our group,” CUMB Head Manager Edith Lerner, BC ’16, said in an official statement. “We recognize that there could be problems with the policy, but we wanted it implement it [sic] right away so that our new members this year knew right off the bat what our values are and how serious we are about our community.”

These people can't possibly be serious. In what universe is this idea anything other than patently retarded? Basically they are making a rule that if you decide you don't like someone you can instantly destroy them at one's own whim. Wow.

Ugh. Why does everybody have to be so stupid about everything?

Yeah, this goes too far, but I have no problem with tertiary education institutions deciding to use something lower than the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard when it come deciding whether to kick people out of student housing, to restrict access to extracurricular activities, or to simply expel.
Logged
Simfan34
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,744
United States


Political Matrix
E: 0.90, S: 4.17

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2014, 02:35:24 PM »


The Community Standards Agreement treats all allegations of assault as truth, and stipulates that Bored members must take steps against any member reported as an alleged assailant.

“We don't care if something is not confirmed, we aren't interested in having alleged perpetrators in our group,” CUMB Head Manager Edith Lerner, BC ’16, said in an official statement. “We recognize that there could be problems with the policy, but we wanted it implement it [sic] right away so that our new members this year knew right off the bat what our values are and how serious we are about our community.”

These people can't possibly be serious. In what universe is this idea anything other than patently retarded? Basically they are making a rule that if you decide you don't like someone you can instantly destroy them at one's own whim. Wow.

Ugh. Why does everybody have to be so stupid about everything?

What are you talking about? It's not like this is an environment in which one can randomly cry that they were raped with zero consequence to them. This is something that carries a great deal of social stigma and intense questioning.

If there was truly some wave of false accusations, as you seem to believe this would enable, the stigma would subside, and in turn we could adopt a more rigorous standard of proof. It's a negative cycle which must be broken at some point, whether it be for the sake of morality, social justice, basic human decency, whatever you want to call it.
Logged
Cory
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3,709


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2014, 02:40:58 PM »

What are you talking about? It's not like this is an environment in which one can randomly cry that they were raped with zero consequence to them. This is something that carries a great deal of social stigma and intense questioning.

If there was truly some wave of false accusations, as you seem to believe this would enable, the stigma would subside, and in turn we could adopt a more rigorous standard of proof. It's a negative cycle which must be broken at some point, whether it be for the sake of morality, social justice, basic human decency, whatever you want to call it.

According to the band, the policy has already been used to prohibit two alumni from coming to band events.

One of the alumni was expelled at the request of another band member, who asked to remain anonymous because she had reported her alleged assault anonymously to the Title IX Office. The student told Spectator that the alumnus allegedly rubbed her back, kissed her neck, and tried to pick her up at a band member’s personal party in January 2014.

Come again?
Logged
Simfan34
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,744
United States


Political Matrix
E: 0.90, S: 4.17

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2014, 02:52:35 PM »

It's not as if any judgement occurs in the university bureaucracy, right? Or that going to them is a traumatising experience in and of itself, yes?

My mistake.
Logged
Bacon King
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 18,822
United States


Political Matrix
E: -7.63, S: -9.49

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2014, 03:59:55 PM »

Okay, organizations with independent executive authority like marching band can basically determine their own membership standards as much as they want, right? I see no problem for them to exclude a person based on the fact that other members of the organization don't feel comfortable around him due to allegations made against him. It's their own call.



In my fraternity days I was faced with a very troublesome dilemma that reminds me of this. Not to go into needless details but someone accused one of our brothers of rape. The guy was my "big brother" who was my mentor when I joined the frat who would always have my back through everything. The girl was my ex, who I dated for a semester before amicably breaking up while remaining close friends. There was no evidence of anything, just the completely contradictory stories of how everything went down. No evidence came to light except for a security camera footage showing that she held the door open for him to enter her dorm building. The police and the school both dropped their investigations.

In the fraternity, we were very uncertain about how to deal with it. Nobody knew who was lying so a lot of people turned to me since I knew both of them better than anyone else in the room. I still don't know which version of the story was true but ultimately I decided against my big brother because he had a far greater incentive to be lying, and because the frat house's female regulars were frightened at the possibility of him being there.

So everyone followed my lead, and we removed him from the chapter. Expelled him because of an accusation he fervently denied, while both the administrative hearing and the criminal investigation had been unable to pass any judgement against him.

For smaller groups dealing with these problems internally, fairness isn't really so relevant. It's about the reputation and integrity of the organization, and allowing the people who attend the group's functions to feel safe and secure. That's why we did what we did, and I completely understand the marching band's policy here because it is effectively doing the same thing
Logged
© tweed
Miamiu1027
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 36,563
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2014, 04:13:33 PM »

If the potential rapist is tried in a real court and found guilty, kick him out.  If me or someone I loved got raped and the only people punishing the bastard was the school I'm going to be super pissed.  Again, it's beyond stupid that schools do this.  It's fine for things like cheating, maybe even fighting (I'd still rather that get taken care of in a real courtroom), but for serious crimes, it's stupid.

I more or less agree with this.  the problem is that pressure gets placed on institutions other than the state to take action.  see the NFL and Ray Rice/Adrian Peterson: while the state doesn't view these people as too dangerous to be incarcerated, people view the fact that they're allowed (or were allowed) to participate as evidence of the NFL's lack of moral standard.

Bacon King brings up the counter-point:

Okay, organizations with independent executive authority like marching band can basically determine their own membership standards as much as they want, right?
...
For smaller groups dealing with these problems internally, fairness isn't really so relevant. It's about the reputation and integrity of the organization,

at its most basic level, this is one of the problems with a heavily privatized society.  power to mess with lives gets placed in Roger Goodell's hands, or the marching band exec's hands, or with the university professor.  at one level, since they act on behalf of private organizations, they can do whatever they want, fairness be damned... yet somehow, we know this isn't the whole story, that private orgs owe something to the public interest, owing to their social function.

public relations is degenerated democracy.  we have these organizations that are crucial to the wider society -- universities and professional football -- that are designed as hierarchical, essentially totalitarian private dictatorships.  yet we demand that they uphold basic standards of "decency" and cry foul when they don't.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.073 seconds with 14 queries.